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PAF victories against Israeli Air Force, kept secret for 25 years - Air Commodore (r) Khalid Chishti

More than that. I have read various books written by respected writers [no not Muslims with axe to grind but Western] that expose one thing. In every war Israel had even before it was created in 1947 involved massive external help from some Western source. Either officially or unofficially.

The point you made is absolute true. I have read about it as well. As it appeared that Egyptians were gaining the upper hand, their crossing of the Suez Canal would credit German Panzer Armies in WW2 he Americans went into emergency mode. US satellites gave live info to Israeli's on exact movement of Egyptian armour. In addition massive air logistic support began to fill any Israeli losses. I even read that a meeting took place in Washington that looked at possibility of using tactical nukes by US Army to prevent Israel being over ran by Ehgyptian Army.

I think this war woke the Egyptian leadership to the fact that they were fighting USA. So fighting Israel was futile unless you could defeat America. This reality is what persuaded Sadat to make peace with Israel.



Operation Nickel Grass was a strategic airlift conducted by United States to deliver weapons and supplies to Israel during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Over 32 days, between October 14 and November 14, the U.S. Air Force’s Military Airlift Command shipped 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies in C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft. The supplies came at a critical moment as Israel’s stocks were rapidly being depleted.


The invading armies from Egypt and Syrian were trained and equipped by the Soviet Union. The Soviets had supplied them with more than 600 advanced surface-to-air missiles, 300 MiG-21 fighters, 1,200 tanks, and hundreds of thousands of tons of other war materiel.


Henry Kissinger, the United States Secretary of State and President Richard Nixon’ National Security Advisor, believed it would undermine American security and deterrence if Soviet-armed forces defeated Israel’s U.S.-armed military. He arranged for El Al to pick up ammunition, “high technology products” and AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles from a naval base in Virginia; however, he hoped to keep any visible involvement to a minimum to avoid upsetting America’s Arab allies, particularly the oil-producers who had threatened to withhold oil supplies if the United States came to Israel’s assistance.



@Beny Karachun You know what the Americans did for Pakistan during the war with India? They STOPPED supply of even spare fcukin parts leaving Pakistan to beg Turkey etc for bolts and nuts for US supplied Sabre jets.
Americans have done that to the Israelis too. So did the French. That's why the Israelis decided to start their own programs....the Nesher, Kfir, Lavi. Heck they even had a batch of Vipers stopped from being delivered. Pakistan ain't the only one who has felt that....
Ironically, many PAF combat pilots were based in Jordan at that time which is now a major Israeli ally in the Middle East. Russian stooge ZA Bhutto had a major role to put Pakistan against Israel in the Egyptian-Syrian adventure although Israel did nothing against Pakistan up until then. However, Israel did take revenge by actively supporting in the 1971 Indian invasion of East Pakistan by supplying logistics and intelligence.
Times change.....
 
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3 Is a possible option, and even then it's a high number.
In all of its wars since 1948, Israel only lost 25-26 jets in dogfights and shot down 687 enemy jets in dogfights. That's 27.5:1 ratio.

11 Would account for 44% of all Israeli aerial losses, 3 would account for 12%.
12% is doubtable, let alone 44%.

There is a difference between PAF pilots and Arabs trained by Indians --
 
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Americans have done that to the Israelis too. So did the French. That's why the Israelis decided to start their own programs....the Nesher, Kfir, Lavi. Heck they even had a batch of Vipers stopped from being delivered. Pakistan ain't the only one who has felt that
Stop comparing oranges with apples. In 1963 US ceased all supplies to Pakistan in middle of the war with India which lead to severe issues with keeping what was mostly American platforms functioning. In contrast USA laubche Opertion Nickel Grass to supply Israel with arms which were brought in by air during the 1973 war.

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Israel has continously recieved leaked technologies from Western countries thanks to the influential Jewish population in those countries. The Kfir was clone of French Mirage whose blueprints were stolen. Ditto the F-16. Today the F-35 has been supplied to IDF even when it is being supplied to USAF. No other country gets this level of US support. Nobody has ever raised a murmur about Israeli nukes. Not even when Mossad kidnapped a whistlblower from Italy.

So your comparison is jaundiced to say the least.
 
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Stop comparing oranges with apples. In 1963 US ceased all supplies to Pakistan in middle of the war with India which lead to severe issues with keeping what was mostly American platforms functioning. In contrast USA laubche Opertion Nickel Grass to supply Israel with arms which were brought in by air during the 1973 war.

View attachment 717560

Israel has continously recieved leaked technologies from Western countries thanks to the influential Jewish population in those countries. The Kfir was clone of French Mirage whose blueprints were stolen. Ditto the F-16. Today the F-35 has been supplied to IDF even when it is being supplied to USAF. No other country gets this level of US support. Nobody has ever raised a murmur about Israeli nukes. Not even when Mossad kidnapped a whistlblower from Italy.

So your comparison is jaundiced to say the least.
The Road to Jerusalem goes through Washington in this day and age but Israel has smarten up to a extent they know the US will eventually get tired of the Mid East quagmire hence Israel's push to take relations with the Muslim world to the next level
 
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Stop comparing oranges with apples. In 1963 US ceased all supplies to Pakistan in middle of the war with India which lead to severe issues with keeping what was mostly American platforms functioning. In contrast USA laubche Opertion Nickel Grass to supply Israel with arms which were brought in by air during the 1973 war.

View attachment 717560

Israel has continously recieved leaked technologies from Western countries thanks to the influential Jewish population in those countries. The Kfir was clone of French Mirage whose blueprints were stolen. Ditto the F-16. Today the F-35 has been supplied to IDF even when it is being supplied to USAF. No other country gets this level of US support. Nobody has ever raised a murmur about Israeli nukes. Not even when Mossad kidnapped a whistlblower from Italy.

So your comparison is jaundiced to say the least.
Not drawing any comparisons. Just stating Americans can do it even to their "allies"
 
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Benny, Giora Epstein was an outstanding Pilot but if you come with counter arguments as such then I have to mention the most bad *** fighter pilot...M.M. Alam. Any how you are drifting away from the point...which is PAF has confirmed and documented Kills against IAF and the IAF doesn't.

This doesn't render the IAF of being a formidable and tactically sound opponent.
It's all probability.
You have let's say, 500 Arab jets, and let's say 3 of them have Pakistani pilots, unknowingly to Israel.

What are the odds of Israeli pilots encountering Pakistani pilots? 3/500. That's 0.6% chance. And shooting them down has even a lower chance. And Israeli pilots don't even knoe if they're Pakistani, even if they did shoot them down, so it all comes down to Pakistani reports, I don't think you would report about a Pakistani pilot getting shot down by Israeli pilots.

In contrast, the chances of a Pakistani pilot encountering an Israeli jet is 100%.

I come with counter arguments that make absolute sense, the person claims the entire Israeli airforce is Pakistan's b!tch because of some tiny engagements that might have resulted in 3 jets shot down that meant nothing for the war.
 
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Yes, IDAF where fighting with their hands tied. That is certainly not the case in any air battle, in fact in 67 IDF struck first and enegaged Arab aircraft many times before attacking targets. This really is a pathetic attempt to excuse a loss in fair air to air combat. The more you post the more "Indian" Israel seems to become, and trust me, that is no compliment
That's simply wrong. Israeli jets came in by surprise. Arab aircraft were engaged on the ground as a priority, this was the command given by the generals, and this is what led to the Israeli complete air superiority. I doubt there even was much of an air combat. 2 of the jets were bombers.
Can you break down the numbers of respective countries jet shot down?
I can break it down by air forces in certain wars, but not between the wars
The US. The US told you that you are not facing Arab pilots any more. Now you are facing the best pilots in the world so now stop.
And you did
Away from PAF.
Zionism is a cancer on mankind
But the idiots don't know that Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism
:omghaha:
There is a difference between PAF pilots and Arabs trained by Indians --
Arabs were not trained by Indians, they were trained by Russians, and the Jordanians by the British
 
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It's all probability.
You have let's say, 500 Arab jets, and let's say 3 of them have Pakistani pilots, unknowingly to Israel.

What are the odds of Israeli pilots encountering Pakistani pilots? 3/500. That's 0.6% chance. And shooting them down has even a lower chance. And Israeli pilots don't even knoe if they're Pakistani, even if they did shoot them down, so it all comes down to Pakistani reports, I don't think you would report about a Pakistani pilot getting shot down by Israeli pilots.

In contrast, the chances of a Pakistani pilot encountering an Israeli jet is 100%.

I come with counter arguments that make absolute sense, the person claims the entire Israeli airforce is Pakistan's b!tch because of some tiny engagements that might have resulted in 3 jets shot down that meant nothing for the war.
Who ever made you forgot to put the quitting in you....talking about probability then let me break the news to you that the 500 or how ever many aircraft the majority of those were destroyed on the ground.

As I had clearly stated the the limited times the PAF did come across IAF...PAF had always been on the top, bet it 67 or 74.

I never said IAF is Pakistan lil bichh I said and I quote "IAF is PAF's lil bichh".

I have yet to see the Zoins claim that a Pakistani Fighter pilot has been shot down.....because they never got the chance.

Why did the IAF not attack Pakistan like wise Iraq? I think we all know the answer to that.
 
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When your adversaries are flying 3rd gen fighters and you're flying Uncle Sam's top dog figgter just because you're the favourite child for some reason, it's really mot something to gloat. It's like middle aged man gloating cuz he beat the shit out of some pre-schoolers.

3 is confirmed. 11 is highly likely. You know why? Because Israel was facing actual pilots instead of incompetent helpless men in obsolete aircraft.
3 Is a possible option, and even then it's a high number.
In all of its wars since 1948, Israel only lost 25-26 jets in dogfights and shot down 687 enemy jets in dogfights. That's 27.5:1 ratio.

11 Would account for 44% of all Israeli aerial losses, 3 would account for 12%.
12% is doubtable, let alone 44%.
 
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Kahuta much?
What difference does it make? Israel is not an enemy or a threat. At best they are somewhat of a nuisance due to their supply of weapons to India but then again so are France/Russia...

If the ISI/Pak Military ever thought Israel was a threat then we would be stationing troops/equipment in Syria/Jordan etc... the fact that we arent speaks for itself.
 
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We shot down an Indian Su30 with an Israeli pilot if memory serves me correct in feb2019.
Before the Israelis deny that there were none of their personal with India, the munitions used by the IAF where largely Israeli, their advisors and military personnel are there still.
After being humiliated by the PAF, India threatened the following day that they would use ballistic missiles against us. Pakistan countered that and said in return would hit India AND ISRAEL very hard.
If there was no Israeli pilot, Pakistan would not have made such a statement.
 
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We shot down an Indian Su30 with an Israeli pilot if memory serves me correct in feb2019.
Before the Israelis deny that there were none of their personal with India, the munitions used by the IAF where largely Israeli, their advisors and military personnel are there still.
After being humiliated by the PAF, India threatened the following day that they would use ballistic missiles against us. Pakistan countered that and said in return would hit India AND ISRAEL very hard.
If there was no Israeli pilot, Pakistan would not have made such a statement.
That is very good bullshit. Basically saying that Israel is willing to risk one of their own officers to get involved in another country's issues. Trust me on this when I say, Israeli fighter pilots have better things to do and their first and foremost is their duty to the state of Israel.

Where do you all come up with this stuff.........
 
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Who ever made you forgot to put the quitting in you....talking about probability then let me break the news to you that the 500 or how ever many aircraft the majority of those were destroyed on the ground.

As I had clearly stated the the limited times the PAF did come across IAF...PAF had always been on the top, bet it 67 or 74.

I never said IAF is Pakistan lil bichh I said and I quote "IAF is PAF's lil bichh".

I have yet to see the Zoins claim that a Pakistani Fighter pilot has been shot down.....because they never got the chance.

Why did the IAF not attack Pakistan like wise Iraq? I think we all know the answer to that.
You're so full of yourself you don't have common sense.

Not gonna talk to you anymore
There was a time when Indian AF IPs were training Iraqis
I don't know when was that, but Iraq definitely had no major role in our wars.
When your adversaries are flying 3rd gen fighters and you're flying Uncle Sam's top dog figgter just because you're the favourite child for some reason, it's really mot something to gloat. It's like middle aged man gloating cuz he beat the shit out of some pre-schoolers.

3 is confirmed. 11 is highly likely. You know why? Because Israel was facing actual pilots instead of incompetent helpless men in obsolete aircraft.
Another fool, full of himseld😂
 
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That is very good bullshit. Basically saying that Israel is willing to risk one of their own officers to get involved in another country's issues. Trust me on this when I say, Israeli fighter pilots have better things to do and their first and foremost is their duty to the state of Israel.

Where do you all come up with this stuff.........
Of course, just like when the Israelis hadn't planned to bomb kahuta with the Indian pals.
We are well aware Israel keeps a very close eye on us.
I know the Israelis pilots have 'better' things to do, such as bombing defenceless civilians, that's why you guys and the pee drinkers are close
 
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