PAF Should Go For The F 35---A Coupe De Grace

[James David]

I don't think we will ever be offered F-35s.

The tech is too sensitive and we are a little too close to the Chinese. Americans already believe that Chinese stole their stealth technology for J-31 and will not be delivering such a prized item to a staunch Chinese ally. It is not 60's or 80's anymore when we were provided with sabers and fighting falcons. Then we were in the American camp against USSR, now we are in the Chinese camp and not a part of US Asian pivot strategy.

We can't afford them anyways.

No, and yes actually. First of all Pakistan is a major Non NATO Ally so whether you like it or not Pakistan is a part of the US Asian pivot strategy . Yes, because at the moment, Pakistan can not afford it. Its not as if you dont have enough US Made jets to keep your "neighbor" at bay buddy.

No more American fighters please! What guarantee is there after the WOT is over if it ever is US will refuse to sell us goodies. We should leave our slave mentality behind and work to develop something ingenious.

Why!??! American jets kept your "neighbor" at bay for the past 70 years or so. Those 16's, Sabres, Starfighters, are the main reason the PAF has a high kill ratio and not those jets from your "new ally" or "new friend" as other members always say. If not because of those jets, India would have conquered you by now. You are not slaves to the US of A but an ally and a friend. Stop listening to propaganda that the US is the Great Satan and all that will you buddy? It will screw your mind. The USA has always been and will always be a friend to PAKISTAN.

F35 is the best answer to Pak Fa and i am sure Uncle sam will agree to sell as long as we can guarantee a chinese free air base .
Remember two countries Israel and Pakistan ,made Falcon very famous all over the world. America will for sure wants Pakistan and Israel to get Lightening 2 and roast Pak Fa , Su series and Rafael etc .

Actually I think not, Pakistan getting the F-35 is not a good idea. It will seriously undo the balance of power in the subcontinent buddy. It's not that the current F-16's that you have on your fleet is giving sleepless nights to your neighbor. Pakistan having the F-35 is a nightmare scenario for them.

@gambit , @Syed.Ali.Haider , @Armstrong , your inputs here gentlemen?

 

[haviZsultan]

[Why!??! American jets kept your "neighbor" at bay for the past 70 years or so. Those 16's, Sabres, Starfighters, are the main reason the PAF has a high kill ratio and not those jets from your "new ally" or "new friend" as other members always say. If not because of those jets, India would have conquered you by now. You are not slaves to the US of A but an ally and a friend. Stop listening to propaganda that the US is the Great Satan and all that will you buddy? It will screw your mind. The USA has always been and will always be a friend to PAKISTAN.

Source: PAF Should Go For The F 35---A Coupe De Grace | Page 9

What was the Presler Amendment about then?

 

[James David]

What was the Presler Amendment about then?

@haviZsultan my friend, I am just being realistic here, as I have mentioned Pakistan having the F-35 will seriously undo or at the minimum, tilt the balance of power in the subcontinent to Pakistan's favor. If that happens, your neighbor might get too nervous and might accidentally press the BIG RED BUTTON and we don't like that to happen don't we? As I have said on my post, you have more than enough to deter and keep your neighbor at bay. But then again, that's just me. If you get the F-35, then that's good. If not, well maybe you can get stealth fighters from somewhere else.

 

[haviZsultan]

@haviZsultan my friend, I am just being realistic here, as I have mentioned Pakistan having the F-35 will seriously undo or at the minimum, tilt the balance of power in the subcontinent to Pakistan's favor. If that happens, your neighbor might get too nervous and might accidentally press the BIG RED BUTTON and we don't like that to happen don't we? As I have said on my post, you have more than enough to deter and keep your neighbor at bay. But then again, that's just me. If you get the F-35, that's good.

Pakistan is slowly realizing the problems of having a relationship with America. It may be a so called ally but it uses us and abandons us whenever it sees fit. Its refusal to sign a nuke deal with us which it signed with India signifies its unwavering bias towards our country. I would prefer my country to buy from china or work with Iran and Turkey rather than the United States.

As an ally China has no demands from Pakistan. US has constant demands from us. Even the claim that we are being given aid is false as it is compensation for our losses. Our losses till last year were more than $100 billion while aid from US less than 18 billion. In short any country allied with US has suffered consequences, discounting Israel.

 

[James David]

Pakistan is slowly realizing the problems of having a relationship with America. It may be a so called ally but it uses us and abandons us whenever it sees fit. Its refusal to sign a nuke deal with us which it signed with India signifies its unwavering bias towards our country. I would prefer my country to buy from china or work with Iran and Turkey rather than the United States.

As an ally China has no demands from Pakistan. US has constant demands from us. Even the claim that we are being given aid is false as it is compensation for our losses. Our losses till last year were more than $100 billion while aid from US less than 18 billion. In short any country allied with US has suffered consequences, discounting Israel.

If that's your opinion then that's fine my friend good for you!!! We are all entitled to one. I thank the stars the Pakistani Government think otherwise. Lets put aside the politics and all that crap to politicians shall we? We are just talking about the F-35 for Pakistan my friend. nothing more nothing less. Let us not stray to unrelated topics and what have you buddy.

 

[Sharpshooter12]

No, and yes actually. First of all Pakistan is a major Non NATO Ally so whether you like it or not Pakistan is a part of the US Asian pivot strategy . Yes, because at the moment, Pakistan can not afford it. Its not as if you don't have enough US Made jets to keep your "neighbor" at bay buddy.

Certainly buddy 18 Block 52 and 60 odd vintage (but hey they are US made) f-16's are more than enough for keeping 270 SU-30's, 60 Mig-29 UPG and about 50 Mirage 2000's at bay and will certainly be able to keep the Rafales at bay too if our neighbor acquire them in the near future. And we should not worry about those FGFA's, they are no match for our F-16 Block 15 OCU that we just received from the Americans, after paying for them 25 years ago, but they are US made after all so that means something.

Or perhaps its out nuclear weapons that are keeping our neighbor at bay ever since the 80's. Those Sabers and Starfighters could not keep our neighbor at bay in 71, we lost half of our country then.

Excuse my ignorance Sir, but if the Asian Pivot strategy is to contain China and its influence in the region, then after providing naval base to the Chinese navy in Gawadar where exactly do you see Pakistan fitting in this strategy.

 

[James David]

My friend @Sharpshooter12 , are you implying that the PAF was whooped by IAF in the 71 War? That is contrary to other members here are saying... and I thought your PAF rocked...
The lost of East Pakistan (Now Bangladesh) is hardly the topic here my friend, but let me indulge you, it was more on the decision of the people of the then East Pakistan declaring their independence and not about the US supplied jets. One country, two parts, and in the middle, your sworn enemy which was logistically and numerically superior (on paper at least). Then do the math. Pakistan lost Bangladesh because the Bengali people wanted independence and wants nothing to so with Pakistan plain and simple. (I maybe wrong)
Then if you provided a naval base to the Chinese, then Uncle Sam will never sell you the F-35's due to obvious reasons buddy. (or at least that is what I think)

 

[haviZsultan]

My friend @Sharpshooter12 , are you implying that the PAF was whooped by IAF in the 71 War? That is contrary to other members here are saying... and I thought your PAF rocked...
The lost of East Pakistan (Now Bangladesh) is hardly the topic here my friend, but let me indulge you, it was more on the decision of the people of the then East Pakistan declaring their independence and not about the US supplied jets. One country, two parts, and in the middle, your sworn enemy which was logistically and numerically superior (on paper at least). Then do the math. Pakistan lost Bangladesh because the Bengali people wanted independence and wants nothing to so with Pakistan plain and simple. (I maybe wrong)
Then if you provided a naval base to the Chinese, then Uncle Sam will never sell you the F-35's due to obvious reasons buddy. (or at least that is what I think)

Buy f35's and again get entrapped in the process of payment from our side but refusal to supply them-wasn't that what was happening in 1990's.

 

[21 Dec 2012]

@James Jaevid Please don't fall for this BS.

What was the Presler Amendment about then?

The Pressler Amendment allowed the US to continue supplies of military and economic aid conditional on the President assessing that Pakistan was not developing nuclear weapons, which he of course knew you were. The sanctions were placed in 1979, not 1990. They were placed under the safeguards that were created in response to your neighbour's decision to go nuclear in 1974 (which incidentally happened because of our role in 1971). Pakistan before, during and after US involvement in Afghanistan; was repeatedly offered a choice - between nukes and continued American military and economic support. Your leaders very well knew what they were doing when they chose nukes. We didn't dump you, you dumped us.

 

[AtiF Malang]

Actually I think not, Pakistan getting the F-35 is not a good idea. It will seriously undo the balance of power in the subcontinent buddy. It's not that the current F-16's that you have on your fleet is giving sleepless nights to your neighbor. Pakistan having the F-35 is a nightmare scenario for them.

F16 is already balanced or superseded by Su 30 MKI . Pak Fa will upset the balance which can only be countered by F 35. India keeping Rafael Su 30 Pak-Fa and F35 will be itself threat to US and as far as we all know US, US don't trust even The UK.

 

[VCheng]

No, and yes actually. First of all Pakistan is a major Non NATO Ally so whether you like it or not Pakistan is a part of the US Asian pivot strategy . Yes, because at the moment, Pakistan can not afford it. Its not as if you dont have enough US Made jets to keep your "neighbor" at bay buddy.

Why!??! American jets kept your "neighbor" at bay for the past 70 years or so. Those 16's, Sabres, Starfighters, are the main reason the PAF has a high kill ratio and not those jets from your "new ally" or "new friend" as other members always say. If not because of those jets, India would have conquered you by now. You are not slaves to the US of A but an ally and a friend. Stop listening to propaganda that the US is the Great Satan and all that will you buddy? It will screw your mind. The USA has always been and will always be a friend to PAKISTAN.

Actually I think not, Pakistan getting the F-35 is not a good idea. It will seriously undo the balance of power in the subcontinent buddy. It's not that the current F-16's that you have on your fleet is giving sleepless nights to your neighbor. Pakistan having the F-35 is a nightmare scenario for them.

@gambit , @Syed.Ali.Haider , @Armstrong , your inputs here gentlemen?

Let me just say that USA remains the friend that Pakistanis love to hate. The F-35 may be available to PAF at a point in the future, who knows, but not soon.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Let me just say that USA remains the friend that Pakistanis love to hate. The F-35 may be available to PAF at a point in the future, who knows, but not soon.

I don't think it's a one sided affair, the US itself has many trust issues with Pakistan ... So how does that manifest itself in the near future .. considering the developments of today where ISIS and the taliban are going up against each other, different warlords getting active etc ..

Pakistan has done quite well against the TTP in Zarb-e-Azb one can make up some sort of reasoning to lobby for F-35 for Pakistan .. No matter how much the news of F-35 being XYZ come along, it is an undeniable fact ... that avionics and sensor fusion wise it is among the best the world has to offer today ... but that alone is not the only factor at play here ...

We are after all,dealing for Zulus and received the F-16's and got the permission to get the used F-16's from RJAF ... but strictly speaking from an airforce perspective, the biggest argument in the favor of F-16's was the experience of 2 odd decades on those birds and it was alot more effective to upgrade an existing fleet adding in numbers and go for block 52, shortening the learning curve for say a brand spanking new fighter in the same league ... such as the J-10 .. The same however is not the case with the F-35 ...

Not only is the -35 very expensive ... but we simply cannot afford another Kargil where we were barely making it work owing to the sanctions etc. and therefore, I think its better to go for a more trusted supplier in China. J-31 although might not be as advanced as the Lightnings, but certainly present a much more favorable equation for PAF, where it already operates RD-93's on JFT's (also onboard J-31's), and more or less the Chinese weapons package that is going to come along with the J-31's ...

I guess for Pakistan all it boils down to is "don't repeat the same mistakes over and over again"

 

[Last Samuri]

Dose of reality here folks

PAF latest purchases for fighters

13 used F16 block a/b from the mighty jordanians. for next to nothing

18 block 52 BRAND NEW falcons subsidised by USA grant aid.

50 block one JFT from china for $650 million with soft loans. $13 million each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your desire for F35

AT $125milion each
AND
Each flight hour costing 3 times the cost of your falcons and 4 times the cost of a JFT

how you going to do this financially

YOUR DEFENSE BUDGET IS CLOSER IN SIZE TO MTNAMAR OR NRTH KOREA than Saudi Taiwan or South Korea.

 

[Jaam92]

Hi,

After much thought and deliberation---I have come to the conclusion that PAF should change gears in mid stream and go for a 2 Sqdrn strength of the F 35 initially.

They should drop the idea for the SU35 or the J11D and go for the JH7B with the upgraded engine and aesa radar.

But the key over here is the F35----. With the procurement of this aircraft---it can bring some balance to the fire fight and have some strength at its disposal to maintain and manage an aggressive and a defensive power stance---.

This is an unconventional approach to the problem at hand---. Go for the 5th gen aircraft first and then go back to the 4--- 4.5 gen aircraft---.

It will also give it enough time to develop the JF 17 blk 3 as well.

There are a couple of things that have changed-----. @Zarvan brought my attention to a thread started by Usama---I believe---regarding the F15 Silent eagle----with a new configuration of 16 BVR missiles on the wings and underbody with conformal fuel tanks designed by Boeing believe.

The F 15 would be guided by the F22 and the F 35 towards the target---the same can be done with the JF 17's. If it can be designed to carry 6 BVR missiles---then you have taken care of some of the problems facing the air defense of the country.

By going for the F 35---you are going to take the initiative away from the enemy. If it was me----I would rather have 2 sqdrn's of F35's than 4 sqdrn's of J11d's or SU35's.

You guys are being upset at why this change in game plan----why d I keep bringing different scenarios-----. I guess you people might come across some news in the near or distant future.

So---til then--- I am not going to say anything else---. Just wanted to let you guys know---if India was a litte more aggressive last year---the deal for the J10B's was done----.

To those who are roaming around the air force bases----please look for 2 of them------.

I think it will be better to chose russian or chinese instead of begging for this expensive 5th Gen
Choosing F-35 could be burden for PAF budget
On other side we can be partner in Chinese 5th Gen Aircraft or We could give boost to our relation with russia by choosing SU 35

 

[MastanKhan]

18 block 52 BRAND NEW falcons subsidised by USA grant aid.

.

Is death from a strike by any of these aircraft a lesser form of death!!!!!

@James Jaevid Please don't fall for this BS.

The Pressler Amendment allowed the US to continue supplies of military and economic aid conditional on the President assessing that Pakistan was not developing nuclear weapons, which he of course knew you were. The sanctions were placed in 1979, not 1990. They were placed under the safeguards that were created in response to your neighbour's decision to go nuclear in 1974 (which incidentally happened because of our role in 1971). Pakistan before, during and after US involvement in Afghanistan; was repeatedly offered a choice - between nukes and continued American military and economic support. Your leaders very well knew what they were doing when they chose nukes. We didn't dump you, you dumped us.

Hi,

The U S did not force the sanctions----. It was because Pressler hated Pakistan and was an India lover.

These sanctions were placed by India loving senators who brought forward the motion----Regan was strong----he pushed it aside---Bush sr was weak---he could not----.

So---please don't portray it that the U S as a whole wanted to place the sanctions---.

If the U S admin had it---there would have been no sanctions at all----.