PAF should convert FT5 and FT7 to Target Drones

[Imran Khan]

I was just replying to the discussion above my post by arsalanaslam123 .

" drones to target enemies " , a jet powerd object targeting enemy is well a cruise missile.. so i was asking why PAF need that..

bhai sar ke opper se guzer gai tumhary?

yaar target drones will takeoff make dog fight and killed in training not to target enemy or war use. target drone mean dogfight training one side poilet and another side fighter with no poilet. its work very well in USA .its call QF-4 OR QF-16

and painted orange tail mark is team rarget




look heretarget drone f-4 fly without poilet

here QF-4 fire missile

 

[skybolt]

if we convert 99 training aircraft as targeted Drones so is there any replacement of these 99 Aircraft.
Although we have k-8 but don't u think right now we don't have K-8 in quantity which can replace 99 aircrafts

 

[skybolt]

The Final Mission: The USAF’s QF-4 Target Drones
They Shoot Airplanes, Don’t They?

Under United States law (Title 10, Section 2366 of the U.S. Code) a missile system must undergo lethality testing before it can enter full-scale production. This means it must be fired at a combat-configured target, which for air-to-air or surface-to-air missiles is a full-size, fully capable aircraft. The cost and hazards of using a manned aircraft from the active-duty inventory for this purpose are obvious. Instead, the target is an unmanned FSAT drone. As one 82 ATRS pilot summarizes it, “the F-4 is dying, to give birth to new weapons systems.”

In support of U.S. test and evaluation activities, Phantom drones also act as targets for non-lethal tests of missiles, radar and other sensors, and defensive systems. They also support Air Force and Navy training, such as “Combat Archer” missile shoots.

Both services also employ sub-scale target drones, which are less costly to operate than FSATs. But only a full-scale target offers the flight characteristics, performance envelope – including subsonic and supersonic flight at altitudes up to and above 50,000 feet – endurance, radar and infrared (IR) signatures, and damage resistance of a real aircraft.

The QF-4 – the “Q” prefix signifies a drone conversion – is the latest of many distinguished Air Force fighters to adopt the drone role at the end of its days, following the Convair PQF-102 Delta Dagger (used from 1974 to 1985), North American QF-100 Super Saber (1983-1992), and Convair QF-106 Delta Dart (1990-1998). The F-4 was a logical choice to succeed the QF-106. Hundreds of surplus Phantoms were available following the type’s phase-out. Its suitability for drone use had been proven by the Navy, which had operated QF-4s in its own drone program since 1972. And as the QF-106 had suffered several accidents due to landing-gear failure, the F-4s’s ruggedness and reliability were selling points.

 

[skybolt]

The Making of a Drone

QF-4 conversions are performed by BAE Systems in Mojave, California. Over 230 Phantoms have been “droned” since 1995, and conversions will continue through 2011 if all contract options are exercised. Production at first concentrated on F-4E tactical fighters and F-4G “Wild Weasel” defense-suppression aircraft. As the last models retired from active duty, these airframes were in good condition and still had a military supply chain. The earliest conversions included a few RF-4C photo-reconnaissance variants, which were found harder to control than later models because they lacked slats. Nonetheless, with no suitable F-4Gs left and stocks of candidate F-4Es depleted, RF-4C conversions resumed in 2007.

Candidate aircraft are taken from storage at the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group, at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base (AFB), Arizona. Following depot maintenance, the aircraft are flown to Mojave, where the drone conversion is performed. Completed aircraft are ferried to Tyndall AFB, Florida for Air Force acceptance tests. The process takes about seven months from storage at AMARG to active status and costs about $800,000 U.S. per aircraft.

The QF-4 conversion adds a digital control system for remote operation of the aircraft’s steering, throttles, flaps, landing gear, brakes, braking parachute, and tailhook. Also fitted are a vector Doppler scoring system, transponder, second autopilot, and GPS for navigation and formation-keeping in remote flight. Non-essential equipment such as the F-4E’s 20mm cannon is replaced with ballast, while unused avionics like radar are left aboard but disabled. Finally, the wingtips and tail are painted orange to distinguish the aircraft as a drone.

The QF-4s are assigned to the 82nd ATRS at Tyndall, part of the 53rd Weapons Evaluation Group. The squadron operates full-scale and sub-scale drones over Tyndall’s air weapons range in the Gulf of Mexico. Detachment 1 of the 82 ATRS, based at Holloman AFB, New Mexico, provides target services for the Army and civilian contractors over the Army’s White Sands Missile Range (WSMR).

 

[SQ8]

Lets put it this way, when the QF-4 target program was in full swing in the 90's. The cost of converting a single F-4 Phantom to a QF-4 drone was upwards of $2 million. Now those QF-4 are very VERY safe machines even as drones, with self destruct, multiple links and thingamachiks to help it work better.
Considering that and lets assume that the PAF ignores the self destruct protocols, system refurbishment etc etc. It will still take upwards of $500000 to successfully convert a F-7 into a workable target drone would be reliable enough to be flown around without having to worry about it going rogue and flying into India or crashing into a dam.
In contrast, adding the same turbojet that Babur uses to a baaz drone will at maximum end up costing 150000 rupees and all in all prove to be a better target.(this was thought up, but even this proved to be too costly for our AF)
The best possible use for all those FT-5's and F-7's is to use them as decoys and/or scrap them.

 

[skybolt]

 

[SekrutYakhni]

I do not buy this idea.

My thoughts: Retire the fleet and use it as an income generator. Open a flying school for public which will not only create revenue for PAF but it will also create an awareness among public. Enthusiastic and patriotic individuals who are not in PAF for many reasons will have a great opportunity to fly the eagles...

Just my thought

 

[skybolt]

 

[Kompromat]

Folks you cannot achieve the maneuvering that an AC will do from Falco - that is why USAF uses F-4 drones and now even F-16's.

 

[MZUBAIR]

if we convert 99 training aircraft as targeted Drones so is there any replacement of these 99 Aircraft.
Although we have k-8 but don't u think right now we don't have K-8 in quantity which can replace 99 aircrafts

These old 99 are aging now...not suitable for training for new generation fighter AC's.............we surely need ~50 new trainer AC's .....as discussions were on borad with China for L15 few months ago. but I dont know updates

 

[skybolt]

These old 99 are aging now...not suitable for training for new generation fighter AC's.............we surely need ~50 new trainer AC's .....as discussions were on borad with China for L15 few months ago. but I dont know updates

Buddy Agreed with U....
But till we get more new K-8, we have to continue with FT5 & FT7