PAF revamped Air Defense Alert System

[Ali_Baba]

Representative pic.

Pakistani designed and manufactured. The TRM modules were built locally as well. I can assure you no such similar Chinese radar Exists either. The closest looking radar would be the YLC18A which PAF operates but that has totally different type of array and smaller chassis etc etc. However few of the sub structural components like hydraulics mast is obtained from third party provider I think for this radar above.

Interesting if true - and shows how "late" to the game Pakistan is ...

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

IMO, Pakistan needs an indigenous long range SAM project. Modern SAM systems are very expensive and would burn up forex that we don't have. There is a lot of value added if Pakistan had a long range SAM system that was 60%-70% domestically made. China and Turkey could provide the remaining 30%-40% components

GIDS website shows that we have indigenous SAM project under way

Hope they get success especially in SAM project
this is our first attempt in true SAM development and they are directly aiming for 100km.
Lets see what comes out of this

 

[LeGenD]

So you are telling me that China and Russia can not detect F-35s or F-22s? I am also sure the the US has no way of detecting J-20s.

Question should be "at what range."

For example, Soviet P-18 Spoon Rest (or Russian 1RL131 Terek; or Chinese YLC-8A) operates in VHF band and it can detect an aircraft around 320 KM mark. Russians will tell you this much and mention that this radar system can detect stealthy aircraft - average consumer will take this statement at face value and assume that the radar system can detect a stealthy aircraft around 320 KM mark but this is incorrect. P-18 could detect an F-117A Nighthawk around 30 KM mark in reality.

Your statement about US not being able to detect J-20 is funny. Do you think that US cannot simulate J-20 with technologies at its disposal? US is doing this in FED FLAG already. Keep in mind that US developed its first stealthy aircraft in the 1960s and it continues to lead in this domain by a long shot.

US has also developed some of the largest and most advanced radar systems and sensor systems in the world.

Take a look at this thing:

The U.S. Navy’s Next Hawkeye Plane Can Detect Stealth Fighters

Specifically, the next generation of Russian and Chinese fighters

medium.com

American R&D capability is significant and continues to stay ahead of others.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Question should be "at what range."

For example, Soviet P-18 Spoon Rest (or Russian 1RL131 Terek; or Chinese YLC-8A) operates in VHF band and it can detect an aircraft around 320 KM mark. Russians will tell you this much and mention that this radar system can detect stealthy aircraft - average consumer will take this statement at face value and assume that the radar system can detect a stealthy aircraft around 320 KM mark but this is incorrect. P-18 could detect an F-117A Nighthawk around 30 KM mark in reality.

Your statement about US not being able to detect J-20 is funny. Do you think that US cannot simulate J-20 with technologies at its disposal? US is doing this in FED FLAG already. Keep in mind that US developed its first stealthy aircraft in the 1960s and it continues to lead in this domain by a long shot.

US has also developed some of the largest and most advanced radar systems and sensor systems in the world.

Take a look at this thing:

The U.S. Navy’s Next Hawkeye Plane Can Detect Stealth Fighters

Specifically, the next generation of Russian and Chinese fighters

medium.com

American R&D capability is significant and continues to stay ahead of others.

Sir what are your expectations for GIDS developing a 100KM range SAM system?
What should be our expectations considering our present Missile development capabilities?

 

[farooqbhai007]

Sir what are your expectations for GIDS developing a 100KM range SAM system?
What should be our expectations considering our present Missile development capabilities?

The systems being revealed now are those which have been in development for more than a decade. There are several signs that point towards this SAM being already in prototype testing phase.

 

[Bilal.]

The systems being revealed now are those which have been in development for more than a decade. There are several signs that point towards this SAM being already in prototype testing phase.

With this capability developed, can we expect air to air missile development based on the tech experience?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Looking at the LOMADS project, I'm starting to wonder if our decision-makers actually came up clutch all the way back in 2017 when South Africa reached out to collaborate on defence. We had heard of an in-house SAM project before (I was expecting something like FAAZ-SL), but a system with a range of up to 100 km is really surprising.

I wouldn't say it's SIPER territory (the tech base of SIPER is much higher and will lead to ABM and THAAD-type solutions), but LOMADS could plausibly be a revival of the Denel Umkhonto R project. If they picked up an idle project in South Africa, then the DPMR stack is already present and the focus would need to go into guidance, ECCM, seeker, etc.

With this capability developed, can we expect air to air missile development based on the tech experience?

Theoretically, they can re-use the dual pulse motor/rocket (DPMR) stack for a SAM. However, DPMR-based AAMs might be nearing their ceiling from a utility standpoint; a lot of next-gen AAMs are drawing on ramjet and scramjet tech. So, in this sense, an indigenous supersonic cruise missile (SMASH?) could play a more pivotal role in future AAM development

Cynical me also wonders if GHQ, NHQ, AHQ, etc, suddenly revealed these projects to get Pak defence forum nerds back on their side. Them memes have been precision airstrikes. Forget the nation, we need those four-eyed keyboard warriors back on our side. @JamD @Bilal. @Falcon26

 

[Bilal.]

Looking at the LOMADS project, I'm starting to wonder if our decision-makers actually came up clutch all the way back in 2017 when South Africa reached out to collaborate on defence. We had heard of an in-house SAM project before (I was expecting something like FAAZ-SL), but a system with a range of up to 100 km is really surprising.

I wouldn't say it's SIPER territory (the tech base of SIPER is much higher and will lead to ABM and THAAD-type solutions), but LOMADS could plausibly be a revival of the Denel Umkhonto R project. If they picked up an idle project in South Africa, then the DPMR stack is already present and the focus would need to go into guidance, ECCM, seeker, etc. @JamD @Bilal. @Falcon26

View attachment 931272

Hisar-U territory. Future growth will lead to SIPER level. The number of simultaneous engagements leads me to believe it’s active radar guided.

Which leads to the question. Will this also lead to AAM development?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hisar-U territory. Future growth will lead to SIPER level. The number of simultaneous engagements leads me to believe it’s active radar guided.

Which leads to the question. Will this also lead to AAM development?

It can if we're investing in the DPMR tech. That's the key here. If we're building an internal capacity to develop and produce DPMRs, then (as Turkiye has shown) anything is possible, be it AAMs, different types of SAMs, ARMs, and so on. But if we're just plugging in a COTS DPMR with other COTS inputs, then we're treading on Bakhtar Shikan and Super Mushshak territory, and may not see much further development.

I earnestly hope this reveal is a reflection of DPMR investment. In fact, I would prefer we delay LOMADS by 10 years if it means we develop an indigenous DPMR stack that we can re-use or develop further for other applications.

 

[farooqbhai007]

Hisar-U territory. Future growth will lead to SIPER level. The number of simultaneous engagements leads me to believe it’s active radar guided.

Which leads to the question. Will this also lead to AAM development?

The SHORADS FAAZ-SL is interesting. SL = Surface launched so safe to assume air launched variant might exist as well.

Looking at the LOMADS project, I'm starting to wonder if our decision-makers actually came up clutch all the way back in 2017 when South Africa reached out to collaborate on defence. We had heard of an in-house SAM project before (I was expecting something like FAAZ-SL), but a system with a range of up to 100 km is really surprising.

I wouldn't say it's SIPER territory (the tech base of SIPER is much higher and will lead to ABM and THAAD-type solutions), but LOMADS could plausibly be a revival of the Denel Umkhonto R project. If they picked up an idle project in South Africa, then the DPMR stack is already present and the focus would need to go into guidance, ECCM, seeker, etc.

View attachment 931272


Theoretically, they can re-use the dual pulse motor/rocket (DPMR) stack for a SAM. However, DPMR-based AAMs might be nearing their ceiling from a utility standpoint; a lot of next-gen AAMs are drawing on ramjet and scramjet tech. So, in this sense, an indigenous supersonic cruise missile (SMASH?) could play a more pivotal role in future AAM development

Cynical me also wonders if GHQ, NHQ, AHQ, etc, suddenly revealed these projects to get Pak defence forum nerds back on their side. Them memes have been precision airstrikes. Forget the nation, we need those four-eyed keyboard warriors back on our side. @JamD @Bilal. @Falcon26

I'm pretty sure there several more radars in prototype phase.

 

[Bilal.]

It can if they're investing in the DPMR tech. That's the key here. If we're building an internal capacity to develop and produce DPMRs, then (as Turkiye has shown) anything is possible, be it AAMs, different types of SAMs, ARMs, and so on. But if we're just plugging in a COTS DPMR with other COTS inputs, then we're treading on Bakhtar Shikan and Super Mushshak territory, and may not see much further development.

That or multistage? The American route?

Multi-stage in theory should be even better.

The SHORADS FAAZ-SL is interesting. SL = Surface launched

Good catch! And use of SLAMRAAM for representation.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That or multistage? The American route?

Multi-stage in theory should be even better.

View attachment 931275


Good catch! And use of SLAMRAAM for representation.

For sure, but the caveat is figuring out how much indigenous rocket development work we've done up to this point. IIRC, Denel's rocket stack for the Umkhonto R was used in the Marlin BVR AAM. Now, with FAAZ-SL basically being our own SLAMRAAM, then suggesting that we already have an AAM in the works is a good guess. My point is that we could build upon it and do more provided we mastered the tech (like Turkiye).

One of the concerns I had with the Ra'ad-series was that it was stuck because we leveraged an idle South African project. However, AWC clearly kept developing upon what it had and produced the Ra'ad-II and Taimoor. So, that would suggest that we have done addition work on the inputs, such as miniature turbofan or turbojet, materials, and guidance stack. If the SAMs are following a similar trajectory, then we'll see longer-ranged variants and, possibly, spin-off projects like AAMs, ARMs, etc.

 

[Bilal.]

For sure, but the caveat is figuring out how much indigenous rocket development work we've done up to this point. IIRC, Denel's rocket stack for the Umkhonto R was used in the Marlin BVR AAM. Now, with FAAZ-SL basically being our own SLAMRAAM, then suggesting that we already have an AAM in the works is a good guess. My point is that we could build upon it and do more provided we mastered the tech (like Turkiye).

One of the concerns I had with the Ra'ad-series was that it was stuck because we leveraged an idle South African project. However, AWC clearly kept developing upon what it had and produced the Ra'ad-II and Taimoor. So, that would suggest that we have done addition work on the inputs, such as miniature turbofan or turbojet, materials, and guidance stack. If the SAMs are following a similar trajectory, then we'll see longer-ranged variants and, possibly, spin-off projects like AAMs, ARMs, etc.

Imagine “similar” arrangement for a long range AAM:

AIM260 didn’t take the dual pulse route but multi-staged one. Pakistan has had decades of experience in fabricating solid rocket motors of various form and sizes and multi-stage rockets.

 

[arslank03]

I guess we will find out in time find out if this is repurposed design from another country or a true in Pakistan designed and manufactured radar ..

It is truly in house from ground up, i reported about it here. Exact same radar i am talking about.

Pakistan moves ahead with domestic AESA radar development | Shephard

Pakistan is quietly developing AESA radars for potential applications in ground-based and airborne roles.

www.shephardmedia.com

For sure, but the caveat is figuring out how much indigenous rocket development work we've done up to this point. IIRC, Denel's rocket stack for the Umkhonto R was used in the Marlin BVR AAM. Now, with FAAZ-SL basically being our own SLAMRAAM, then suggesting that we already have an AAM in the works is a good guess. My point is that we could build upon it and do more provided we mastered the tech (like Turkiye).

One of the concerns I had with the Ra'ad-series was that it was stuck because we leveraged an idle South African project. However, AWC clearly kept developing upon what it had and produced the Ra'ad-II and Taimoor. So, that would suggest that we have done addition work on the inputs, such as miniature turbofan or turbojet, materials, and guidance stack. If the SAMs are following a similar trajectory, then we'll see longer-ranged variants and, possibly, spin-off projects like AAMs, ARMs, etc.

im going to be very honest with you, if you look at the graphic and you look at similar missiles, you'll see a striking resemblance of the body to the skydragon 50...

Imagine “similar” arrangement for a long range AAM:

View attachment 931283
AIM260 didn’t take the dual pulse route but multi-staged one. Pakistan has had decades of experience in fabricating solid rocket motors of various form and sizes.

compare that graphic to the A300 MRL i post below

 

[Bilal.]

im going to be very honest with you, if you look at the graphic and you look at similar missiles, you'll see a striking resemblance of the body to the skydragon 50, now consider that alongside NASTP and their plans they had for the sky dragon 50...

But that’s half the range