PAF Pilots To Be Honoured

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

This will be a long reply so i request your complete attention.

Respectfully, Things dont add up! one side you have commented as per your sources complete control was there fire was open cautiously and deescalate immediately. hence 2 x kills.

On other side of coin you are stating that this filmy type of thing had happened! clash of egos!

This is what i think after linking the dots..after all DG ISPR has given the liberty to us by not disclosing complete picture for all to see..he has his reasons!

PAF went in full aware that there will be resistance after all they were probing all night 26th-27th Feb. so this ROI and Cautious approach which you are implying as per your sources goes out of the window.

They were to bomb the targets (just not the legitimate targets) they knew IAF will come after them any sane force will. so you/they think that they didnt shoot in free will.

There is not a single pilot or Air boss in this world worth his salt not to open fire once the shooting started this would be treason what if one gets through and takes out one of ours! would PAF expect to Indians to approach cautiously...i dont think so if they had chance they would have fired freely. this brings me to an important point Even Iraqi AF fired missiles at there opponent, Serbian MiG-29s fired at there opponents. Syrians able to fire against there opponents. why did not IAF fired a single missile.....hell even blind firing can cause disturbance among the foe. the picture you have made is yes they were locking each other up and waiting to things happen...is a recipe of disaster! until unless PAF did its Job amazingly well! wipe the slate clean!!!

Yes, Hiding large amount of kills is may be of many reasons "Kargill" is well entrenched in our memory it started small and just got big...PAF mission was strike that was to be of importance but response just got big.

Then may be foreign pilot or pilots theory does have some weight in it...because once you claim all the kills then you have to tell them who was in a pair of mirage 2000i...

so this led me to conclusion that Number of kills scored are much higher then 2 kills and damages scored on ground in too much as well and while at it Our DG ISPR requested india to tell the truth when they were readying there Brahmos what we did! this itself requires subjective analysis.

Food for thought!
By the way IAF is still flying? high tempo because when they flew they had abnormal amounts of accidents and road accidents happened. alert is still there why these accidents are not happening on regular basis after all its 2 months and 5 days..

In the end!
No matter what 2 losses of IAF in air are not enough to bring Brahmos into play and completely sidelining a 678(pre-battle) and 670(post Battle) force until something devastating had to happened and then not to come close to 50-60km of Pakistan Border. does say a lot!

and off course! everybody has the right to call this post "BS" and move forward!

@Windjammer @The Eagle @Vortex @MastanKhan @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Mangus Ortus Novem

Of course, you are a Pak! Once you have seen your target you aren't going to let go before the kill!


Being humble in victory can protect us from follies of the future.

Giving a defeated enemy a safe exit is wisdom of war.

I believe for the first time... we as State acted in unison of perpose, clarity of resolve and skill of Kill! And we did make many kills... both in assets and psychology.

Kindly, dig deeper.... Chief went to Sialkot Sector..... it was on TV as well... in the same sector indians had killed a mentally distrubed woman... a couple days earlier.

Indians grabbing missiles so early in the conflict shows us something.... and then not being able to use. Now that is mystery.

Was there no IAF to bomb tarrorists anymore? Was there no IA on the frontlines to do something other than killing civilians on our side? Where was the mighty INS?

Qibla @MastanKhan and I are in unison in our belief that we should have buried that indian sub deep in the Afro-Asian Ocean and kept our mouth shut.. one thing less to worry..after all we had all its signatures that we needed... I believe that was too much of overconfidence and desire to gain browny points from ....

What happened happened.... the result is that there is no Regional Hegemon anymore. Period.

Of course we shall have to listen to permanent randi rona... what can we do... it is our kismat!

I am extremely delighted to see that the Pak State is Keeping the Lips of Wisdom Sealed!

On the forum of course we can squeez the lemon as much as we like... afterall, indian army has found Yeti!

 

[airomerix]

This will be a long reply so i request your complete attention.

Respectfully, Things dont add up! one side you have commented as per your sources complete control was there fire was open cautiously and deescalate immediately. hence 2 x kills.

On other side of coin you are stating that this filmy type of thing had happened! clash of egos!

This is what i think after linking the dots..after all DG ISPR has given the liberty to us by not disclosing complete picture for all to see..he has his reasons!

PAF went in full aware that there will be resistance after all they were probing all night 26th-27th Feb. so this ROI and Cautious approach which you are implying as per your sources goes out of the window.

They were to bomb the targets (just not the legitimate targets) they knew IAF will come after them any sane force will. so you/they think that they didnt shoot in free will.

There is not a single pilot or Air boss in this world worth his salt not to open fire once the shooting started this would be treason what if one gets through and takes out one of ours! would PAF expect to Indians to approach cautiously...i dont think so if they had chance they would have fired freely. this brings me to an important point Even Iraqi AF fired missiles at there opponent, Serbian MiG-29s fired at there opponents. Syrians able to fire against there opponents. why did not IAF fired a single missile.....hell even blind firing can cause disturbance among the foe. the picture you have made is yes they were locking each other up and waiting to things happen...is a recipe of disaster! until unless PAF did its Job amazingly well! wipe the slate clean!!!

Yes, Hiding large amount of kills is may be of many reasons "Kargill" is well entrenched in our memory it started small and just got big...PAF mission was strike that was to be of importance but response just got big.

Then may be foreign pilot or pilots theory does have some weight in it...because once you claim all the kills then you have to tell them who was in a pair of mirage 2000i...

so this led me to conclusion that Number of kills scored are much higher then 2 kills and damages scored on ground in too much as well and while at it Our DG ISPR requested india to tell the truth when they were readying there Brahmos what we did! this itself requires subjective analysis.

Food for thought!
By the way IAF is still flying? high tempo because when they flew they had abnormal amounts of accidents and road accidents happened. alert is still there why these accidents are not happening on regular basis after all its 2 months and 5 days..

In the end!
No matter what 2 losses of IAF in air are not enough to bring Brahmos into play and completely sidelining a 678(pre-battle) and 670(post Battle) force until something devastating had to happened and then not to come close to 50-60km of Pakistan Border. does say a lot!

and off course! everybody has the right to call this post "BS" and move forward!

@Windjammer @The Eagle @Vortex @MastanKhan @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Mangus Ortus Novem

I dont see any contradiction in my posts. Why?

1) The plans division DID consider the eventuality of an air war. But an air war taking place was altogether a new ball game.
2) The primary mission of PAF was to destroy targets on the ground. And not shoot down IAF fighters.
3) IAF fighters were shot down AFTER they engaged with PAF fighters. Our fighters wouldn't have gone after them had they not interfered with the primary mission of PAF.
4) If you ask any pilot. Releasing a missile is not an independent decision. Usually requires acknowledgment from HQ, But that day the Air Boss was airborne to speed things up and lead from the front.

As much as we'd like to believe this narrative of more than 2 IAF fighters being shot down. It is not the case. Only two missiles were fired as per dozen's of officers I've met. All have the same story.

Also, I disagree with your last part. 2 fighter losses in 2019 are more than enough to be felt by entire Indian high brass. That too with one pilot being taken as captive by your arch rival. They resorted to SSM's for multiple reasons.

1) SSM's are safer. No Indian lives are directly at stake.
2) IAF's morale was down
3) IAF's high brass refusing to execute any ill conceived mission for Modi's political gains.

Massom sa sawal: if both kills scored inside Pakistan ...why didn't we see the wreckage of of other jet?

Only Mig 21 was shot down inside Pakistan. Maybe I used the wrong sentence structure to give an impression otherwise. Su-30 was shot down inside India.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I don’t know why but this recent episode reminds me of the Third Battle of Panipat, fought in 1761 to put a lid on the Hindutuva/RSS type mindset for a couple of centuries....

 

[TheTallGuy]

1) The plans division DID consider the eventuality of an air war. But an air war taking place was altogether a new ball game.
2) The primary mission of PAF was to destroy targets on the ground. And not shoot down IAF fighters.
3) IAF fighters were shot down AFTER they engaged with PAF fighters. Our fighters wouldn't have gone after them had they not interfered with the primary mission of PAF.
4) If you ask any pilot. Releasing a missile is not an independent decision. Usually requires acknowledgment from HQ, But that day the Air Boss was airborne to speed things up and lead from the front.

Respectfully, When Plans division did consider air war and primary mission was to strike the targets and not to shoot IAF Fighters till they reacted or reacted once intrusion was in progress. or as you say interfered with Primary mission of PAF. sounds so wrong at so many levels.

In your 4 points you are telling that our boys were sent in battle and gloriously led by Airboss! with one hand tied behind back! so to say you do know the flying time from scramble to LOC from IOKs 3 x FOB bases in less then 60 seconds and its much shorter for Standing CAPs and nobody was a threat and flew in lala land except the 2 which we shot down.

PAF job was to strike and remove any threat that arises! you have also conveniently side track the point i made about IAF not firing any missiles.

Also, I disagree with your last part. 2 fighter losses in 2019 are more than enough to be felt by entire Indian high brass. That too with one pilot being taken as captive by your arch rival. They resorted to SSM's for multiple reasons.

1) SSM's are safer. No Indian lives are directly at stake.
2) IAF's morale was down
3) IAF's high brass refusing to execute any ill conceived mission for Modi's political gains.

Again point that you have highlighted in bold - can i ask what if we had lost 1 or 2 aircraft and action was going on God Forbid Indians Prade our pilot on TV would that have stop PAF?

and your Point about SSM? they are safer no Indian lives are directly at stake...what are you saying God forbid if they had fired brahmos and we had retaliated no Indian lives were to be lost - I am taking out nuke issue all together as i believe it was never in use...or thought to be used.

Only Mig 21 was shot down inside Pakistan. Maybe I used the wrong sentence structure to give an impression otherwise. Su-30 was shot down inside India.

Not to nit pick but Su-30MKI was shot down in IOK not India unless you unintentionally wrote India.

On the forum of course we can squeez the lemon as much as we like... afterall, indian army has found Yeti!

Its funny isnt it Pakistan Army doesn`t go around sharing on international level about our soldiers and mountains of north what ever lives there which some times they see some time they dont can smell them from miles because of air is so pure and fresh! they discuss and make fun.

But to go official with yeti! What has happened to Indian Army?

 

[TheTallGuy]

we should be objective, there is not real proof. just like there isnt any for the f16. we should judge ourselves by the same standards we judge our enemy.

 

[airomerix]

Respectfully, When Plans division did consider air war and primary mission was to strike the targets and not to shoot IAF Fighters till they reacted or reacted once intrusion was in progress. or as you say interfered with Primary mission of PAF. sounds so wrong at so many levels.

In your 4 points you are telling that our boys were sent in battle and gloriously led by Airboss! with one hand tied behind back! so to say you do know the flying time from scramble to LOC from IOKs 3 x FOB bases in less then 60 seconds and its much shorter for Standing CAPs and nobody was a threat and flew in lala land except the 2 which we shot down.

PAF job was to strike and remove any threat that arises! you have also conveniently side track the point i made about IAF not firing any missiles.



Again point that you have highlighted in bold - can i ask what if we had lost 1 or 2 aircraft and action was going on God Forbid Indians Prade our pilot on TV would that have stop PAF?

and your Point about SSM? they are safer no Indian lives are directly at stake...what are you saying God forbid if they had fired brahmos and we had retaliated no Indian lives were to be lost - I am taking out nuke issue all together as i believe it was never in use...or thought to be used.



Not to nit pick but Su-30MKI was shot down in IOK not India unless you unintentionally wrote India.



Its funny isnt it Pakistan Army doesn`t go around sharing on international level about our soldiers and mountains of north what ever lives there which some times they see some time they dont can smell them from miles because of air is so pure and fresh! they discuss and make fun.

But to go official with yeti! What has happened to Indian Army?

Here is what I think about your post or thought process.

It is very aggressive. And there is a gap in understanding how geopolitics and military work in a war theatre.

It doesnt matter how far Indian FOB's were from the point of strike. Like I said, we were prepared for any eventuality. Our primary target was to strike a number of designated targets and head back with footage of strike. That was to be played on media and this time Pakistan would set the narrative of 'surgical strikes' itself.

The engagement of IAF fighters was foreseen but shooting down IAF fighters in Indian territory was a big no. Its a diplomatic suicide in peace time. We are killing soldiers everyday at LoC. But we never shoot down an intruding IAF jet. Neither does they. And let me tell you, It happens alot of times.

Mig-21 wasnt so lucky. Its radio's and radar were jammed. Came right in our lap. When Abhinandan went down. It gave the pilots confidence and will to engage. Su-30's in the vicinity were painting the F-16s/JF-17s and so were we. S/L Hassan got a radar lock and he thought its a good idea to release the missile. The Air boss thought so too.

Shooting down of both the jets was not planned. These were difficult decisions based on information available or mere intuition.

And by SSM being safer. It simply means Indians wouldnt have to see another pilot on the streets of Pakistan. Its much more acceptable to them then getting killed on their own soil.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Here is what I think about your post or thought process.

It is very aggressive. And there is a gap in understanding how geopolitics and military work in a war theatre.

respectfully! After all i am a bloody civilian! Right! what do i know?

It doesn't matter how far Indian FOB's were from the point of strike. Like I said, we were prepared for any eventuality. Our primary target was to strike a number of designated targets and head back with footage of strike. That was to be played on media and this time Pakistan would set the narrative of 'surgical strikes' itself.

The engagement of IAF fighters was foreseen but shooting down IAF fighters in Indian territory was a big no. Its a diplomatic suicide in peace time. We are killing soldiers everyday at LoC. But we never shoot down an intruding IAF jet. Neither does they. And let me tell you, It happens alot of times.

After all Indians were able to established "a new norm" on the night of 26th Feb-19. PAF ROE were not adaptive to New Norm but actions taken on 27th Feb-19 can not be under the umbrella of previously established norms..and it was not peace time..look at DG ISPR calling it 3 day war or 90Hrs War...in recent presser!

Mig-21 wasnt so lucky. Its radio's and radar were jammed. Came right in our lap. When Abhinandan went down. It gave the pilots confidence and will to engage. Su-30's in the vicinity were painting the F-16s/JF-17s and so were we. S/L Hassan got a radar lock and he thought its a good idea to release the missile. The Air boss thought so too.

Shooting down of both the jets was not planned. These were difficult decisions based on information available or mere intuition.

Please understand i did not said or implied that PAF primary mission was shooting IAF Fighters but once mission started any thing that remain in context to possible threat should and would have been dealt with.

As they Say "No Plan Survives first contact"

As gentlemen, you have your reasons not to share or ask your sources these pointy questions and i have my known understanding and subjective analysis..or you say Thought process but my narrative as you say or questions that do carry weight.

So we can agree to disagree..after all we are in same boat.

come to realize that i have derailed the thread...so apologies!

 

[airomerix]

W/Cmdr Abhi was shot down by F-16 that was returning back, after performing its mission (after going DAM DAM creating all those secondaries, my God, if you know what I mean). The pilot got alerted of the Abhi's Bison in the pursuit by the Angels. He reversed his heading and launched a Slammer that got active right on the rail. Poor chap had no chance.

The second Slammer, well as you said, was launched in the heat of the moment. We can of course argue about soundness of the decision in the hindsight, which was not available back then. Anyways, the Amraam was launched at an extreme range. The Su30 got defensive immediately. In the process, the driver thought that he had successfully evaded the incoming missile, which to his horror, he must have found to be still chasing him. After loosing the link, it went active again, all the way till it got connected. Sad end to those two souls.

Exactly what I've been saying since months.

The AMRAAM that hit the Su-30 was airborne for 18 seconds. Thats a long time for a mach 6 missile!

S/L Hassan chased that bastard and the missile was in homing phase/getting guidance by the F-16's radar itself for increased accuracy. That is how AMRAAM turned back and tracked the target again in a short while.

 

[Ghessan]

Guys! I dont have expertise to cut the video listen carefully 11:17 to 11:25 @MastanKhan

the reply he gave to Saleem Safi was what he needed, he is kind of journalist who have no direction but to malign certain govt elements and to side with wrong.

 

[Maxpane]

so kills go to f 16?

 

[TheTallGuy]

Exactly what I've been saying since months.

The AMRAAM that hit the Su-30 was airborne for 18 seconds. Thats a long time for a mach 6 missile!

S/L Hassan chased that bastard and the missile was in homing phase/getting guidance by the F-16's radar itself for increased accuracy. That is how AMRAAM turned back and tracked the target again in a short while.

the missile re-acquired the lock and kept it all the way till it got connected. A rather sad end to those two souls.

This shot equates to 37km so one thing is sure Su-30MKI was Deep inside IOK and as said two pilots dead!

MiG-21BISON was shot down within LOC Pakistani Side of Kashmir may be 4nm range approximately.

But my friend ...Then we have 2 x chutes high altitude ejection videos..from our side of LOC. is there a plausible explanation.

2/2 is 100% kill ratio...very good indeed. but Indian Narratives talk about 5-6 amraam shots including these..

 

[TheTallGuy]

Its is an underestimation by far. The actual launch range was much greater than what you have quoted.

I calculated based upon Distance=speed x time 18 Second flight time at Mach 6 is approximately 37km.

I asked a question if you dont mind please answer about 2 x chutes ejection from high altitude.

They sprout a lot of other bullcrap too. Do you expect them to spell out the truth?

They had a Rajnikanth SU-30MKi evading 4-5 AMRAAMS at 15000-16000ft single handedly over HVA and live to tell the tale...this is bull crap.

Why didnt IAF fired a single missile at their foe?

 

[The Accountant]

I calculated based upon Distance=speed x time 18 Second flight time at Mach 6 is approximately 37km.

I asked a question if you dont mind please answer about 2 x chutes ejection from high altitude.

AMRAAM is mach 4 not mach 6 secondly Pakistani F16s were way inside the territory so there is almost no chance that MKI was shot deep inside Indian territory

They had a Rajnikanth SU-30MKi evading 4-5 AMRAAMS at 15000-16000ft single handedly over HVA and live to tell the tale...this is bull crap.

Why didnt IAF fired a single missile at their foe?

Evading 5 to 6 BVR missiles could be a possibility of PAF shot them intentionally from the maximum distance and MKIs rather than engaging turned away and flee ... This is the tactics that are to scare the enemy from engagement rather than to kill them ...

 

[airomerix]

AMRAAM is mach 4 not mach 6 secondly Pakistani F16s were way inside the territory so there is almost no chance that MKI was shot deep inside Indian territory

You really think wikipedia will tell you its true range?

AMRAAM's flight envelope allows it to reach Mach 8 when it comes down on its target (gravity included)

I would suggest you to sit down and have a talk with viper pilots. They'll tell you.

This shot equates to 37km so one thing is sure Su-30MKI was Deep inside IOK and as said two pilots dead!

MiG-21BISON was shot down within LOC Pakistani Side of Kashmir may be 4nm range approximately.

But my friend ...Then we have 2 x chutes high altitude ejection videos..from our side of LOC. is there a plausible explanation.

2/2 is 100% kill ratio...very good indeed. but Indian Narratives talk about 5-6 amraam shots including these..

Bhai 2 jahaz he giray hein. Maan jao.

 

[Falgrine]

What is meant by secondaries?

Mum is the word. Lets keep the explanation for the good times .