PAF ‘OPS SWIFT RETORT’ and the effectiveness of air power

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Watch out your language there! I can roast you in a way you can’t even imagine.

Again playing gimmicks with these tech terminologies and west praising syndrome. Do you think LPI is something very new in market? You think Italians, Spanish, American, Chinese are sitting their praising the masters of EW the french?

My logic is very simple, for every problem there is a solution. And if that thing is commercial. Rafale is a commercial product where french are trying to sell it to everyone.

You keep yourself busy with the gimmicks and narrow minded google research.

The guys in PAF EW wings are way ahead of your tunnel vision. They travel the world and interact with folks. Not like you and me sitting on our mobiles.

Accept the fact that Rafale is not end of the world. PAF did kicked Indians ***. They had French Mirages who fucked up the bombing and their Su30 also had french avionics who was busy dodging our missiles.

If Rafale was so out of the world, their sale to Egypt and Qatar would have given Israel and Saudia sleepless nights.

First of all nobody should take their enemies lightly. I think @CriticalThought does have very valid points!! And, it’s also true man made engineering problems have engineering solutions too!!! I am pretty sure Pak will get to the basics to solve them!! A good approach might be to get hold of a Rafael itself and analyze the possible signal pattern sets it emits!! And, then work out a set of solutions based on that....

Being alone and Ahmak are the same!! I am pretty sure China had lots of interest on Rafaels too!!! A good thing about China is that if there’re n# of ways of solving a problem they have the manpower and resources to try all of them....

 

[blain2]

PL15 and Meteor are not comparable ... Meteor is superior ....

PL15 is comparable of advance than AIM120D

Till used in anger and evaluated by a side with equal insights to both systems, all such statements are hypothetical.

The rumor here in Pakistan was that it was Indian army chief, who was present in Brigade HQ, when the bombs fell in its compound. This news contradicts it.

Its Indian news. It will obviously be contradictory to make themselves come across in a better light.

The key point is, whether it was the Indian CoAS or their regional command leadership, PAF sent a clear message. We would not have missed strikes on 6 targets. The IAF had nothing in the air to pressure PAF during the strikes. The ordnance was released and delivered on the exact point of impact as it was meant.

The Indians have no choice but to say such things in the news to give reassurances to their public, i.e. the PAF missed, they targeted the Bde HQ etc., we got their F-16 etc.

They saw these PAF strikes happen after what would be considered the highest state of alert for any Air Force (since they had conducted the strikes the night before and were expecting a Pakistani response) as such it was sheer embarrassment for the IAF (on top of missing the madrassa target, losing two aircraft in the air to the PAF and killing 6 of their own in fratricide). Overall that is a pretty damning performance as such the last recourse, media spin. PAF hit the sites with precision not wanting to kill anyone because we did not take any losses in the Indian ingress.

The lies and fabrications aside, the Indian military leadership knows what Pakistan did. There are no ifs and buts about it.

 

[Quwa]

We can blame the PAF till kingdom come, but the only real bottleneck here is financial. With the country set to undergo another IMF run (with no intention to improve the economic fundamentals thereafter), the PAF will not leave the backfoot. Sure, the corruption and commissions can knock off a couple hundred million dollars, but it pales in comparison to the billions lost directly and tens of billions of opportunity gone via bad economics.

The most you can hope for now is that the PAF optimizes what money it does have to do what's in Pakistan's best interests. That should mean culling luxuries (e.g., the LIFT program) and moving that money to things that bring the highest operational impact the quickest.

That means doubling down on the JF-17 and finding a longer-range AAM (more range, and longer-range NEZ), more special mission aircraft (esp. a GaN-based AEW&C and more dedicated EW/ECM), and giving all conventional SOWs to the JF-17 so that the PAF can free the Mirages purely for strategic strike. No reason why the strike package for Swift Retort had to include Mirages -- send the H-2/H-4 over to the JF-17B.

 

[The Accountant]

Till used in anger and evaluated by a side with equal insights to both systems, all such statements are hypothetical.


Its Indian news. It will obviously be contradictory to make themselves come across in a better light.

The key point is, whether it was the Indian CoAS or their regional command leadership, PAF sent a clear message. We would not have missed strikes on 6 targets. The IAF had nothing in the air to pressure PAF during the strikes. The ordnance was released and delivered on the exact point of impact as it was meant.

The Indians have no choice but to say such things in the news to give reassurances to their public, i.e. the PAF missed, they targeted the Bde HQ etc., we got their F-16 etc.

They saw these PAF strikes happen after what would be considered the highest state of alert for any Air Force (since they had conducted the strikes the night before and were expecting a Pakistani response) as such it was sheer embarrassment for the IAF (on top of missing the madrassa target, losing two aircraft in the air to the PAF and killing 6 of their own in fratricide). Overall that is a pretty damning performance as such the last recourse, media spin. PAF hit the sites with precision not wanting to kill anyone because we did not take any losses in the Indian ingress.

The lies and fabrications aside, the Indian military leadership knows what Pakistan did. There are no ifs and buts about it.

But till that time we have to go with the advertised specs and they for sure rate ramjet equipped meteor at a higher side ...

We should be extra careful not to underestimate any weapon system of adversary ...

 

[SQ8]

Thank you, a sobering reply. Here are some quick thoughts:

1. DGISPR should have released more damning details, the failure to do so was not the fault of our media (which can never compare in the first place to India's), but the fault of the military establishment

2. To get rid of the enemy within, clear policies need to be instituted. Like all military personnel beyond a certain rank cannot send their kids or themselves abroad as long as they live. Like creating a list of the people who are serving other masters. If you draft a plan, I can try my best to get it to Imran Khan.

3. If this was 65, 71 is awaiting us sooner or later. We have to take concrete steps to be ready for that challenge and learn from history.

Thanks again for a thought provoking reply.

1. A lot of factors were playing into information release - Including what response India might give if we got into tit for tat info release since they are better liars by far and also gave us plenty of casualties on the ground.
In an odd way, we had to succumb to the Indian primary need for recognition because that is what feeds their entire psyche from socioeconomics to foreign policy.
We were trying to deny them this but from our platform and avoid them going even more desperate in their need for recognition.

2. It would be wholly unfair to those children - everyone in Pakistan looks for some sort of masters and the issue has to do with making sure only the highest merit and character make it to the top rather than limit them. Cure is better than treatment.

So far Imran Khan’s meritocracy has fallen flat into the ditch of Pakistani society and I can convey that to him and the President myself.

A silver lining is that we are less inclined to sell out to India because we consider them equal or less to us in opportunity or capabilities.
That equation changes w.r.t to developed nations in the west for whom we are the pitiful Punjabi term of “Bonda”.

3. Yes it is, and the rapid changes the enemy is trying to implement will come of age around the next elections in India.

I was told this by a Paf pilot ofcourse,I wasn't sure whether to believe it but then this article claims the same,so it could be true,after all each claim of India is a fabrication so I would believe Paf rather than Iaf.

Our personnel arent immune to the fog of war either; however in this case Abhinandan’s debrief and a rerun of the radar and comms picture gave that conclusion.

 

[Talon]

1. A lot of factors were playing into information release - Including what response India might give if we got into tit for tat info release since they are better liars by far and also gave us plenty of casualties on the ground.
In an odd way, we had to succumb to the Indian primary need for recognition because that is what feeds their entire psyche from socioeconomics to foreign policy.
We were trying to deny them this but from our platform and avoid them going even more desperate in their need for recognition.

2. It would be wholly unfair to those children - everyone in Pakistan looks for some sort of masters and the issue has to do with making sure only the highest merit and character make it to the top rather than limit them. Cure is better than treatment.

So far Imran Khan’s meritocracy has fallen flat into the ditch of Pakistani society and I can convey that to him and the President myself.

A silver lining is that we are less inclined to sell out to India because we consider them equal or less to us in opportunity or capabilities.
That equation changes w.r.t to developed nations in the west for whom we are the pitiful Punjabi term of “Bonda”.

3. Yes it is, and the rapid changes the enemy is trying to implement will come of age around the next elections in India.


Our personnel arent immune to the fog of war either; however in this case Abhinandan’s debrief and a rerun of the radar and comms picture gave that conclusion.

Yes ofcourse, that's why I didn't believe him at first but as I said a senior is also confirming this so this might be true plus he explained a lots of things to me about the scenario so it was looking somewhat legit.

 

[TsAr]

The enemy is busy learning from their mistakes and will get help to correct them. Once that does happen they will mow through us like a hot knife through butter.
Because our finances are failing and our equipment is long in the tooth.

Baat tu sach ha magar baat ha ruswai ki

 

[loanranger]

there are those who would roll away and bug out at the first sign of a BARS radar showing up on their RWR..

Are you saying that there are cowards in our ranks? If so thats quite damning considering we are hanging by a thread as it is !

 

[crankthatskunk]

Both have BVRs with long ranges (PL-15 vs Meteor)

Both have AESA

Both have SPJ capabilities

Rafale is Omni Role & Thunder is multirole - But this all comes to employment as we dont have requirement for any kind of force projection or long range deep strike missions.

India can hardly afford an other 36 Rafales. Where as with 200+ JFs we will have force concentration in AOR.

Once PAF jumps to 5th Gen then Rafale with be kids in front of them. So for the time being lets deal with Blk-3 while 5th Gen comes into play

The best thing in PAF's strategy, which I like and admire is the self reliant, gradually achieved.
JF 17 paying dividends. Despite being limited compared to some heavy weights in the division, it is performing well, on low budget and cost.
Development of 5th Generation jet home made/Chinese help would further enhanced the capabilities.
While Indians would still be concentrating and procuring very expensive imports.

Let's there be no doubts, in the shape of Su30s they already had a very potent force. Butt what come off it!!
They have to withdraw their prize possessions from the border areas.

Therefore, from the evidence and history, the fate of Rafale wouldn't be any different than Su 30s.
As the evidence goes, JF 17 III would have comparable radar and other technical capabilities. The only thing it would lack compared to Rafale is probably the top speed of Rafale 2,223 km/hr to JF 17 1,960 km/hr, unless JF 17 III would be faster.
That's why I like the beast F 15 Eagle with 3,107 km/hr speed, I wish we had acquired some of these beast from the USA when we had good relations with them. We didn't use Uncle Sam intelligently at the time, rather always acted little bit in awe of it.

 

[CriticalThought]

Watch out your language there! I can roast you in a way you can’t even imagine.

Again playing gimmicks with these tech terminologies and west praising syndrome. Do you think LPI is something very new in market? You think Italians, Spanish, American, Chinese are sitting their praising the masters of EW the french?

My logic is very simple, for every problem there is a solution. And if that thing is commercial. Rafale is a commercial product where french are trying to sell it to everyone.

You keep yourself busy with the gimmicks and narrow minded google research.

The guys in PAF EW wings are way ahead of your tunnel vision. They travel the world and interact with folks. Not like you and me sitting on our mobiles.

Accept the fact that Rafale is not end of the world. PAF did kicked Indians ***. They had French Mirages who fucked up the bombing and their Su30 also had french avionics who was busy dodging our missiles.

If Rafale was so out of the world, their sale to Egypt and Qatar would have given Israel and Saudia sleepless nights.

Talk facts not wishes. If an industry doesnt exist in Pakistan, it doesn't. Just lije visiting car shows around the world doesn't make anyone a mechanical engineer, traveling the world isn't going to make anyone an expert in EW. They will forever remain dependent in suppliers. If you can pay to buy something, your enemies can pay them to sell it but also add backdoors and kill switches, if they don't already do that. These people have made Pakistan dependent on foreign masters because of a lack of vision, and a servile mentality. If you can't even address the main problems facing us, you are useless. Now take a hike and waste your time looking for EW equipment that doesn't exist on the market.

 

[HawkEye27]

Talk facts not wishes. If an industry doesnt exist in Pakistan, it doesn't. Just lije visiting car shows around the world doesn't make anyone a mechanical engineer, traveling the world isn't going to make anyone an expert in EW. They will forever remain dependent in suppliers. If you can pay to buy something, your enemies can pay them to sell it but also add backdoors and kill switches, if they don't already do that. These people have made Pakistan dependent on foreign masters because of a lack of vision, and a servile mentality. If you can't even address the main problems facing us, you are useless. Now take a hike and waste your time looking for EW equipment that doesn't exist on the market.

The thing is you are constantly trying to insist is that if we don’t have an indigenous product then its game over for us. No its not

My point and point of many others who have replied to you - Indigenization is the best thing you can do, no doubt about it but there are off the shelf solutions available also.

But you are being rigid beyond logic. And then again comparing French Industry with Pakistan. Are you in your senses???

Simply stuck to Indo-Pak scenario where both have limited local EW products and R&D. Both rely on foreign partners.

And then also remember EW subjects are top secret. You dont know and I also dont know a heck whats going on in PAF and IAF. So if you claiming to know about either of them then you are simply a lier

I just know that PAF EW rocked on 27th.

The Rafale you are so impressed with. PAF has been studying it since the initial tender of 126 jets was started by IAF. That BS Dhanoa threatens you with Rafale and you simply loose your faith.

The guys in blues are much more aware than keyboard warriors like you. And they have proved it.

In short, stop being rigid. Rafale is awesome but its not end of the world for PAF.

 

[Flight of falcon]

Because emotions should not drive national strategy. The response was calibrated and appropriate. Both of these have a very significant meaning. We don't want a war. That is Pakistan's entire national security strategy. It boils down to one basic line I.E. "Pursuit of national interests through avoidance of war." War is a ruin for everyone so why would Pakistan escalate, kill personnel on the ground and do material damage disproportionately so then the other side has to respond in order to do face-saving?

They did not kill anyone on the ground on Pakistan. Now you want Pakistan to not only draw blood, but go all out?

No self-respecting nation rushes to war to ruin itself and its future generations. It's not something to be taken lightly or waged to assuage bruised egos.

If they have done damage, we too have done a lot of damage to them and so it goes. None of the damage is existentialist and in order to pursue your interests, you have take the losses with the gains.

Hi,

Yeah I have---. I have a Glock 17---a SW AR10 and a BRNO .270---. Before that had a Valmet M76.

Oh---I also have a Diana .22 Magnum air rifle.

At my age---I can still shoot 2 out of 5 rds touching each other at 100 yds without a scope---.

You don't like my posts---okay---no problem---why don't you write something---. It is an open forum---. Writing is the best revenge---.

You may not like what I write---and that is your choice---. I write what I know---but remember one thing---. History has proven that those whose sayings and writings are liked liked in their lifetimes---had!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are many here who don't like me---there are many here who like me---we agree and we disagree---we get mad at each other---but we keep moving forward---.

Are you saying that there are cowards in our ranks? If so thats quite damning considering we are hanging by a thread as it is !

Wow Oscar just had to say something totally idiotic. Seriously how do you know? So these pilots came in your dream and said I will turn away the minute I am painted with the radar or you have actually met them? Bcs I work with a former F7 pilot who is suicidal enough to claim that he would take on any Indian plane any day.
And loan ranger seriously you made another childish statement ... cowards? Hanging by the thread? These same guys delivered to our TVs Abhi none done and IAF which was no where to be found when the time came to fight.

Rest assured we are not sitting idle and waiting for them to bring their new toy without us knowing a thing or two about how to handle this beast. I have not sensed any panic among PAF brass when it comes to Rafael.

First the deal so far is for 36 Rafael. 18 for Pakistani theatre and 18 facing Chinese.
Their top of the line will face our top of the line 18 F16C/Ds.

Once delivered in nov/ dec it will be a while before they fly combat missions . They will initially be used for training and to sort out bugs. So we are looking at almost a year time before they are spotted along LOC.

Indians have a wired way of receiving and inducting new aircrafts in their service. They like to destroy a plane or two. Case in point C130 H crash, Hawk crashes, Su30 crashes , heck when they inducted mirage 2000 their airplane shed crashed over eight brand new planes causing them extensive damage.
So watch out for a crash or two.

Apart from learning about new aircraft flying characteristics in countries like Qatar and possibly Egypt our spies are already at work to find out technical vulnerabilities in these planes.
I have complete faith in Indian inability to manage complex machinery and Pakistani ingenuity to come up with some solutions .
Here this what ISI has been up to lately:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/m.hindu...-france/story-MZFudVu7tzBaBnqgjTWJJO_amp.html

 

[CriticalThought]

The thing is you are constantly trying to insist is that if we don’t have an indigenous product then its game over for us. No its not

My point and point of many others who have replied to you - Indigenization is the best thing you can do, no doubt about it but there are off the shelf solutions available also.

But you are being rigid beyond logic. And then again comparing French Industry with Pakistan. Are you in your senses???

Simply stuck to Indo-Pak scenario where both have limited local EW products and R&D. Both rely on foreign partners.

And then also remember EW subjects are top secret. You dont know and I also dont know a heck whats going on in PAF and IAF. So if you claiming to know about either of them then you are simply a lier

I just know that PAF EW rocked on 27th.

The Rafale you are so impressed with. PAF has been studying it since the initial tender of 126 jets was started by IAF. That BS Dhanoa threatens you with Rafale and you simply loose your faith.

The guys in blues are much more aware than keyboard warriors like you. And they have proved it.

In short, stop being rigid. Rafale is awesome but its not end of the world for PAF.

Actually, I have nowhere stated the problem is unsolvable, or that PAF can't solve it in the future. I have simply laid bare the true nature of the problem at hand.

My assertions are grounded not just in knowledge of EW but also geo-political realities. Just like I refuse to focus only on the aerial victory on 27th when in fact we faced a diplomatic defeat, I refuse to water down the problem as merely an India Pakistan face-off. Even after 27th Feb, the French have been the biggest backers of Indian narrative and have stood shoulder to shoulder with India against Pakistan. The world is uniting against us to change the strategic calculus in S. Asia. We need to wake up and accept the areas where we have a strategic deficiency and work hard to remove it. I will shout this message from the mountain tops even as fanboys like yourself celebrate over small skirmishes.

 

[Flight of falcon]

Actually, I have nowhere stated the problem is unsolvable, or that PAF can't solve it in the future. I have simply laid bare the true nature of the problem at hand.

My assertions are grounded not just in knowledge of EW but also geo-political realities. Just like I refuse to focus only on the aerial victory on 27th when in fact we faced a diplomatic defeat, I refuse to water down the problem as merely an India Pakistan face-off. Even after 27th Feb, the French have been the biggest backers of Indian narrative and have stood shoulder to shoulder with India against Pakistan. The world is uniting against us to change the strategic calculus in S. Asia. We need to wake up and accept the areas where we have a strategic deficiency and work hard to remove it. I will shout this message from the mountain tops even as fanboys like yourself celebrate over small skirmishes.

We have to be realistic with our limitations when it comes to diplomacy.
There is not a single country that matters in Western Hemisphere which is willing to even remotely pay attention to our legit or otherwise grievances. A lot has to do with how NATO had to leave in humiliation from Afghanistan. They have not forgotten and blame Pakistan for their disaster .

The second part is our political leaders. As if hair piece wearing Haqqani was t bad enough in Zardari turn we had a village idiot name Nawaz holding foreign minister portfolio for the next five years. Who is going to articulate our point of view and present to the world our case? Imran Khan cannot do everything overnight. He has set us on the right track at least economically now let’s hope he gets time to focus on projecting Pakistan’s positive image.

Just to give you an idea of where the government of Pakistan priorities are when it comes to matters of diplomacy.
Assistant to Canadian foreign minister went to Pakistan to push for Dr Asim release. He has a Canadian citizenship. PPP uses a well known call girl in Toronto to entertain their politicians when they visit Toronto to buy properties or on vacation. She hired a lobby firm in Ottawa to push for his release. Nawaz Sharif not only did not resist their demands but allowed Omar Alghabra to come to Islamabad and demand Asim’s release which he got.
If our politicians can hire lobbyist to push for corrupt’s release then why cannot we hire someone to push our diplomatic agenda as well?

We as Canadian citizens in our individual capacity pushed for got Islamabad and Lahore removed from Canadian no visit watch list.

 

[Arsalan 345]

who said that?
ISPR clearly said it was only a few mins, while IAF said they didnt intruded and used spice 2000, a SOW(the second statement, first statement was it was 11 min long intrusion

you dont use SOW in deep intrusion, a simple smart bomb or gravity dumb bombs will do fine

i completely agree.i think it's time to start made in pakistan.pakistan needs lots of weapons.we should allocate funds to make radars,air defence systems and uavs.we should think about future.india is using engineers from other countries to create syastems.they have lots of money.unfortunately we don't have money but our people can make weapons.we must protect our skies at all cost.