PAF more vulnerable than ever: Ex IAF officer

[Akasa]

Those numbers are irrelevant. Due to the altitude problem, all they can do properly is air defence. Most of their strike aircraft will be useless.

Neither you nor anyone on this forum are equipped with flight data to make that conclusion.

Anyhow, most of the PLAAF has inferior tech compared to the IAF. Only a few upcoming jets are hi-tech, like J-10C and J-11D, and most of these jets are in theatre commands not facing India.

And so we're just conveniently going to forget about the 200+ J-11B, ~20 J-15, ~100 J-16, 300+ J-10A/B, ~20 J-20, and the hundreds of J-11A & Su-30MKK/MK2?

At least these jets apparently have AESA radars and new AAMs, but even these are significantly inferior to the Rafales and upgraded MKIs. Inductions will be mostly simultaneous for both sides.

I suppose you have raw performance data for the Rafale and the Chinese fighter platforms to make this comparison?

As for others, Su-27, J-11, J-11A/B and J-10A/B are largely pointless against India due to obsolescence. That's pretty much their entire air force. With Su-30MKK, JH-7 and J-16 being strike aircraft, they are significantly less effective due to the altitude.

Keep in mind that the IAF also hundreds of legacy MiG-21s, MiG-29s, MiG-27s, Jaguars, and Mirage 2Ks, none of which are exactly ideally-equipped to wipe the floor with the fighters you've mentioned.

The Su-35 is too less and J-20 is yet to be developed.

Both the Su-35 and J-20 are in active service.

The MKI, upgraded MKI and Rafale are sufficient against both jets.

And this is based on what?

And, as usual, neither of these jets have been positioned against India yet. They need to take care of other fronts at higher priority than the Indian border, since Sino-Indian relations are positive. Which means, India is operating superior jets along the border than the Chinese are.

Any air force worth its weight in salt is capable of deploying its jets on its frontier bases in the matter of hours. In a political situation in which the risk of conflict is high, you can bet your behind that such deployments will be planned, logistically managed, and carried out before either side can militarily act.

Both are way ahead compared to China. And any weaknesses in Russian and French jets have been made up with Israeli tech. China does not have this advantage.

China does not need this "advantage" that you frequently speak of but always fail to provide evidence or argument for.

Take the new Tejas Mk1A for example. We are fitting it with an Israeli radar and EW suite, and it will fire new Israeli weapons, starting with the I-DerbyER and possibly even the new Stunner.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-variant-of-its-dolphin-nosed-stunner-missile

Can you imagine both MKI and LCA equipped with the hypersonic Stunner, and what it can do to any opposing air force with its unmatched range, speed and twin seekers?

So even our future acquisitions are better than what PLAAF can field.

By the tone of your passage, it seems that your argument banks on a lot of speculation and prospect and not enough of the present.

 

[randomradio]

Neither you nor anyone on this forum are equipped with flight data to make that conclusion.

Don't need it. Just look up the altitude of all the major airfields in Tibet.

And so we're just conveniently going to forget about the 200+ J-11B, ~20 J-15, ~100 J-16, 300+ J-10A/B, ~20 J-20, and the hundreds of J-11A & Su-30MKK/MK2?

I didn't forget. Mentioned them all. You've even quoted it.

I suppose you have raw performance data for the Rafale and the Chinese fighter platforms to make this comparison?

You didn't get it. Look up how badly aircraft actually perform while taking from off high altitudes.

Keep in mind that the IAF also hundreds of legacy MiG-21s, MiG-29s, MiG-27s, Jaguars, and Mirage 2Ks, none of which are exactly ideally-equipped to wipe the floor with the fighters you've mentioned.

The Mig-21s and Mig-27s are on their last legs and will not be used against China. Whereas even today the Chinese do not have anything that's as good as the upgraded M2K.

Both the Su-35 and J-20 are in active service.

The former are too few and positioned away from India, and the latter is not yet developed. Those LRIPs are far away from actual operational service. Even the USAF F-35s are yet to reach that level. The J-20 needs a new engine.

And this is based on what?

Russians and French are ahead compared to China.

Any air force worth its weight in salt is capable of deploying its jets on its frontier bases in the matter of hours. In a political situation in which the risk of conflict is high, you can bet your behind that such deployments will be planned, logistically managed, and carried out before either side can militarily act.

Theatre Commands.

China does not need this "advantage" that you frequently speak of but always fail to provide evidence or argument for.

We will talk about China when China starts competing with the West on equal footing in the export market.

And I haven't even mentioned the quality of the manpower and training. Even the Pakistanis don't think the Chinese are good enough, and that's saying a lot.

By the tone of your passage, it seems that your argument banks on a lot of speculation and prospect and not enough of the present.

Nope. All hard facts.

It is you who believes that China does not have a terrain disadvantage and that Chinese electronics and aircraft design are on par with countries like Russia, France and Israel. So it's you who's banking on speculation, not me.

You have to prove that the Chinese are as good or better than the other three countries mentioned above.

 

[Hayreddin]

I called the post ignorant because there is no point even considering bombing runs when IAF will gain Air Superiority within a matter of hours or days.



Can we take that chance? That 46% are not available? Or that Some will be placed on the Chinese Border?

"Air superiority within a matter of hours or days " ?????now this is too much , regardless of the fact i agree with most of your points but that analysis is inaccurate .
2008 air alert and PAF performance and engagment of su30 and mig29s .
Consider air war break out today excluding army navy factors.....
Now paf got 76 f16s MLU and C/D and operational 120 jf17s with 40k hrs . 200 potent fighter jets on whole length of border plus AD system . Against what.......... 350-400 su30/mig29/ mirage 2k ..... .can they pitch all on pak border ignoring other borders considering 5 times bigger tertain answer is big No . Even they do so still ratio is 2:1 . Aggression needs more edge knowing fact that IAF losses wld be more in aggression as they have to deal with paf plus sam system .
In paf vs iaf scenerio due to distance issue plus one on one comparison of air basses on both sides , air war wld be of less Bvr and more dog fight with paf try to engage iaf over pak air space . In dog fight paf got the edge .

 

[tarrar]

Its seems that jabroni was drinking whole night.

 

[volatile]

look at current account deficit, primary deficit, fiscal deficit, monetry policy and debt to GDP ratio

In nominal terms our economy contracted by 25% 2017-2018

Bangladesh has now over taken Pakistan , we dropped from 41 to 44

If taking debt at unsustainable rate was the answer every country would have been doing it but it's not

All what u said is easily available at sbp.gov.pk. these are hard facts that noone can deny thus u wouldnt find even a single economist that would say what PMLN did was right even though no two economist agree on anything they do on this!!!!!

In laymen terms if i take debt of 100 rs and acheive a growth less than 50 than there is something really wrong..PMLN couldnt even match the debt with growth let alone over taking it

While india acheived 7-8% growth h with 5% debt and were still debating that this is too much debt/unsustainable we achives 5.8 with greater than 12% debt(6.6 was offical while 3000 billion was parked else where and 1200 billion was just accumulated in last year )

Result devaluation and coming inflation stoem with looming default status...

But this isnt the fast time..last time it was worse..last time not only he used up all the rserves but also reserves of private sector ..

THanks for your reply only difference between us ,India n bangladesh is the armed forces dont play role in toppling Govts or making way for new one ,that was my point of view thanks for tremendous role play in 2017/2018 we are now considered at a level of Bhutan and Afghanistan .

 

[Zarvan]

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is more vulnerable than ever before even as long-range standoff weapons fired from planes and beyond visual-range missiles and drones have taken over in the modern air warfare where daring air raids with fighter jets flying across border may not be needed anymore.

These views were expressed by experts and former pilots, who have seen air battle during the 1965 Indo-Pak War, while debating “Air Power Lessons Learnt from the 1965 War and their Implementation” on the last day of the Military literature Festival (December 7-9) here today.

Responding to a question about the now role of the Indian Air Force in the context of Pakistan and China, Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (retd), who is Additional Director General of think-tank Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), said: “A tandem manned and unmanned mission will be a reality. A human sitting inside a manned plane (fighter jet or transporter) will control the UAV that will be flying ahead to fire at a target. There will be a human behind the decision”.
He said the capability existed to have long-range strikes, “but unless we have total air dominance, the intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) facilities make it difficult. Yes, the beyond visual range (BVR) missiles are here to stay”, he said, adding “space-based weapons are far away. We are too far to see something fired from space at a ground target”.

New Delhi-based Pushpinder Singh, author of several books on military, including one on the PAF, said: “The PAF is more vulnerable than ever before.” In 1965, he said, the “PAF was cocky, they were young”. Deep down inside they knew if they made a mistake, they could be wiped out.
“They had this plan to strike at IAF bases, but they fumbled and messed up.” However, he said, in the past five to seven years, the PAF honed its skill in fighting a mountain battle due to its efforts in North Waziristan.

Jagan Pilarisetti, author of two books — one each on 1965 and 1971 wars —pointed out that during the 1965 battle, India did not have the air-to-air missile that the PAF had. “There was no strategy to win the war. We were just reacting. Lessons were learnt and in 1971 it was a different no-holds-barred fight.”

Air Marshal Bharat Kumar (retd) moderated the session. Group Captain RS Chhatwal discussed the role of radars in helping fighter pilots.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/paf-more-vulnerable-than-ever-ex-officer/696152.html

Than he needs to tell his former employer I mean IAF to try to bomb Muridkee and Masood Azhar Madrassa or or Choborchi office of Hafiz Saeed and they would know our answer and where PAF stands

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

"Air superiority within a matter of hours or days " ?????now this is too much , regardless of the fact i agree with most of your points but that analysis is inaccurate .
2008 air alert and PAF performance and engagment of su30 and mig29s .
Consider air war break out today excluding army navy factors.....
Now paf got 76 f16s MLU and C/D and operational 120 jf17s with 40k hrs . 200 potent fighter jets on whole length of border plus AD system . Against what.......... 350-400 su30/mig29/ mirage 2k ..... .can they pitch all on pak border ignoring other borders considering 5 times bigger tertain answer is big No . Even they do so still ratio is 2:1 . Aggression needs more edge knowing fact that IAF losses wld be more in aggression as they have to deal with paf plus sam system .
In paf vs iaf scenerio due to distance issue plus one on one comparison of air basses on both sides , air war wld be of less Bvr and more dog fight with paf try to engage iaf over pak air space . In dog fight paf got the edge .

WVR combat is over, unless we keep hiding in clutter and mysteriously/miraculously swoop up and engage. AEW makes that difficult, unless you jam anything and everything, which is against physics. Almost all engagements in a future air war in the sub-continent, regardless of who the adversary might be, shall be BVR-ER engag

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is more vulnerable than ever before even as long-range standoff weapons fired from planes and beyond visual-range missiles and drones have taken over in the modern air warfare where daring air raids with fighter jets flying across border may not be needed anymore.

These views were expressed by experts and former pilots, who have seen air battle during the 1965 Indo-Pak War, while debating “Air Power Lessons Learnt from the 1965 War and their Implementation” on the last day of the Military literature Festival (December 7-9) here today.

Responding to a question about the now role of the Indian Air Force in the context of Pakistan and China, Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (retd), who is Additional Director General of think-tank Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), said: “A tandem manned and unmanned mission will be a reality. A human sitting inside a manned plane (fighter jet or transporter) will control the UAV that will be flying ahead to fire at a target. There will be a human behind the decision”.
He said the capability existed to have long-range strikes, “but unless we have total air dominance, the intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) facilities make it difficult. Yes, the beyond visual range (BVR) missiles are here to stay”, he said, adding “space-based weapons are far away. We are too far to see something fired from space at a ground target”.

New Delhi-based Pushpinder Singh, author of several books on military, including one on the PAF, said: “The PAF is more vulnerable than ever before.” In 1965, he said, the “PAF was cocky, they were young”. Deep down inside they knew if they made a mistake, they could be wiped out.
“They had this plan to strike at IAF bases, but they fumbled and messed up.” However, he said, in the past five to seven years, the PAF honed its skill in fighting a mountain battle due to its efforts in North Waziristan.

Jagan Pilarisetti, author of two books — one each on 1965 and 1971 wars —pointed out that during the 1965 battle, India did not have the air-to-air missile that the PAF had. “There was no strategy to win the war. We were just reacting. Lessons were learnt and in 1971 it was a different no-holds-barred fight.”

Air Marshal Bharat Kumar (retd) moderated the session. Group Captain RS Chhatwal discussed the role of radars in helping fighter pilots.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/paf-more-vulnerable-than-ever-ex-officer/696152.html

The retired hurt officers of IAF whom we gave a nice spanking are very well known to us. They continue to lick their wounds as their incompetence became public knowledge. PAF stands strong, brave and resolute. Every boy i meet in my visits has many times the skill, the valor, and the determination to defend every square inch of our free skies. Such bogus commentary is self serving and sour grapes.

 

[doorstar]

In nominal terms our economy contracted by 25% 2017-2018

Bangladesh has now over taken Pakistan , we dropped from 41 to 44

then why does Bangladesh look like a dirty giant labor camp or sweatshop run by Indians?
why are most of its men dependent on their women for survival?
why are bengalis trying to escape into India's poorest states on a daily basis (at the risk of getting shot and displayed tangled up in barbed wire for days on end)?
why are there so many beggars on the streets?

what is happening with them gazzillon dollars?

 

[MastanKhan]

WVR combat is over, unless we keep hiding in clutter and mysteriously/miraculously swoop up and engage. AEW makes that difficult, unless you jam anything and everything, which is against physics. Almost all engagements in a future air war in the sub-continent, regardless of who the adversary might be, shall be BVR-ER engag


The retired hurt officers of IAF whom we gave a nice spanking are very well known to us. They continue to lick their wounds as their incompetence became public knowledge. PAF stands strong, brave and resolute. Every boy i meet in my visits has many times the skill, the valor, and the determination to defend every square inch of our free skies. Such bogus commentary is self serving and sour grapes.

Hi,

Damn---for how long the posters on this website made fun of me when I talked about minimal WVR combat for modern air combat---maybe 12 plus years---.

In the early to mid 2000---whatever information that I came about---the US pilots were being RE-TRAINED to fight BVR---lock / fire and scoot---. Took a while to change the pilots mindset---.

The USAF believes that WVR fight gives a 50 / 50 chance of success----so why be in a losers preposition when you can have 70% hit ratio from BVR---.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

Damn---for how long the posters on this website made fun of me when I talked about minimal WVR combat for modern air combat---maybe 12 plus years---.

In the early to mid 2000---whatever information that I came about---the US pilots were being RE-TRAINED to fight BVR---lock / fire and scoot---. Took a while to change the pilots mindset---.

The USAF believes that WVR fight gives a 50 / 50 chance of success----so why be in a losers preposition when you can have 70% hit ratio from BVR---.

USAF and USN/USMC naval air forces put great emphasis on WVR. BVR training has always been there but more emphasis has been put on it. However they are still not letting go of WVR training....the ghosts of Vietnam haunt them.

Well there's a fine line between making fun and insulting, so feel the wrath both ways.

Cheers !!!

 

[MastanKhan]

USAF and USN/USMC naval air forces put great emphasis on WVR. BVR training has always been there but more emphasis has been put on it. However they are still not letting go of WVR training....the ghosts of Vietnam haunt them.

Well there's a fine line between making fun and insulting, so feel the wrath both ways.

Cheers !!!

Hi,

indeed they will not let go of the WVR training---that is a must for the pilot---.

But engage WVR wilfully is out of the picture---.

 

[SQ8]

WVR combat is over, unless we keep hiding in clutter and mysteriously/miraculously swoop up and engage. AEW makes that difficult, unless you jam anything and everything, which is against physics. Almost all engagements in a future air war in the sub-continent, regardless of who the adversary might be, shall be BVR-ER engag


The retired hurt officers of IAF whom we gave a nice spanking are very well known to us. They continue to lick their wounds as their incompetence became public knowledge. PAF stands strong, brave and resolute. Every boy i meet in my visits has many times the skill, the valor, and the determination to defend every square inch of our free skies. Such bogus commentary is self serving and sour grapes.

Even if WVR combat occurs, the current generation of missiles with off boresight and high accuracy make anything more than a slash and dash fatal- aka . No time for post-stall “Dances in the sky” TVC. A F-15 old jockey who was a member here called the Aim-9L a “think” missle in terms of its ability to make a kill. The current systems the PAF has on their own are understated and for the most part are ok in the slash and dash situation.

USAF and USN/USMC naval air forces put great emphasis on WVR. BVR training has always been there but more emphasis has been put on it. However they are still not letting go of WVR training....the ghosts of Vietnam haunt them.

Well there's a fine line between making fun and insulting, so feel the wrath both ways.

Cheers !!!

Wherever restricted RoE exists the need for WVR rises.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

The same thought process led to the guns being removed from the F4 phantom as at the time they though that with the advent of a2a missiles n their subsequent development, the days of the "gun" r long gone. And the missile truck that was a f4, no Vietnamese a.c. stood a chance.
But guess what with in a very short space of time they had to reintroduce the gun on the f4, and that is the nature of combat.
As for every weapon their is a counter weapon and tactics developed to defeat that weapon or how to dodge the counter weapon. N this has been the case since the introduction of weapons n will go on till the end of time. That's how the defence industry works.
Since the advent of bvr we r yet to have a shooting war of two equal foes. N when ever that happens we will all see that bvr are not as effective as the broucher made them out to be and the ac will be merging fast and engaging each other in turning fights in wvr. A point proved to a certain extent when a PAF f16 (a non bvr fighter at the time) locked on onto a su30 ( a bvr ac), n footage was shown to the Americans to keep the Indians on a leash.
N that's the nature of war

 

[GumNaam]

The same thought process led to the guns being removed from the F4 phantom as at the time they though that with the advent of a2a missiles n their subsequent development, the days of the "gun" r long gone. And the missile truck that was a f4, no Vietnamese a.c. stood a chance.
But guess what with in a very short space of time they had to reintroduce the gun on the f4, and that is the nature of combat.
As for every weapon their is a counter weapon and tactics developed to defeat that weapon or how to dodge the counter weapon. N this has been the case since the introduction of weapons n will go on till the end of time. That's how the defence industry works.
Since the advent of bvr we r yet to have a shooting war of two equal foes. N when ever that happens we will all see that bvr are not as effective as the broucher made them out to be and the ac will be merging fast and engaging each other in turning fights in wvr. A point proved to a certain extent when a PAF f16 (a non bvr fighter at the time) locked on onto a su30 ( a bvr ac), n footage was shown to the Americans to keep the Indians on a leash.
N that's the nature of war

huh? what? PAF F16 locked on to an indian su30??? first time I've heard of this, can you give more details? when did this happen? do you pics of the footage?

 

[MastanKhan]

A point proved to a certain extent when a PAF f16 (a non bvr fighter at the time) locked on onto a su30 ( a bvr ac), n footage was shown to the Americans to keep the Indians on a leash. N that's the nature of war

Hi,

Indeed that is the nature of war---. An air force that brags about the man behind the machine---and struts around in their raybans---and hands on their hips movie star postures---.

These guys did not have the ballz to shoot down enemy aircraft that had flown right through the heart of the nation---.

And the only thing they could flash around a photo---.

What a disgrace modern day Paf has become---and what cowards the air chiefs are---.