PAF locked on 9 shoot only two...PAF official....0n 27 Feb....

[Aasimkhan]

**** you for calling a guy Trojan horse just coz he's asking for the due share to be given to the common man.


I didn't say nothing to trigger your lil patriotic complexes. My problem is not with the military but with the political elite which every time asks us to look the other way when chol wandi dy are being distributed. Let's forget about the universities, health and other public facilities across Pakistan Just tell me how many traffic lights are in working condition out there in other cities other than Lahore and Karachi ?

One of the many reasons I propose to make friends with India

DIDnt u read what tall Guy said and he is absolutely right, "We can always agree to disagree..but rest assured No economy can develop and grow under existential threat...it simple as that...to become Eco-Fool at a time when you have a neighbor who is following Nazi Germany...who are you fooling? no matter what Economy under existential threat does not boom or develop.."

**** you for calling a guy Trojan horse just coz he's asking for the due share to be given to the common man.


I didn't say nothing to trigger your lil patriotic complexes. My problem is not with the military but with the political elite which every time asks us to look the other way when chol wandi dy are being distributed. Let's forget about the universities, health and other public facilities across Pakistan Just tell me how many traffic lights are in working condition out there in other cities other than Lahore and Karachi ?

and **** you for not being a Trojan Horse but a full blown enemy agent
This is exactly the Modus Operandi of enemy agencies, first sympathise with them, highlight their vulnerabilities/complexes/insecurities and then recruit them for life. You are no different than Asma Jahangir, Manzoor Pashteen or Marvi Sermed.

 

[Mentee]

DIDnt u read what tall Guy said and he is absolutely right, "We can always agree to disagree..but rest assured No economy can develop and grow under existential threat...it simple as that...to become Eco-Fool at a time when you have a neighbor who is following Nazi Germany...who are you fooling? no matter what Economy under existential threat does not boom or develop.."

Did you know the post Islamic Egyptians would still offer young virgins to the Nile as scapegoats to save Cairo and their trade from floodings?


They don't want a decisive battle with the enemy, don't want peace with them either then what else should I get from this lame sorry excuse of an approach? @MastanKhan @Mangus Ortus Novem

and **** you for not being a Trojan Horse but a full blown enemy agent
This is exactly the Modus Operandi of enemy agencies, first sympathise with them, highlight their vulnerabilities/complexes/insecurities and then recruit them for life. You are no different than Asma Jahangir, Manzoor Pashteen or Marvi Sermed.

OK!

Where's our development money? Spending all of it again to make another metro so some cosmopolitans can jerk their sense of aesthetics off?

 

[Mentee]

Oye Putar Pakistan dae,

StatusQuo!

Both are stuck deep...with very little room to maneuver.

Everyone somehow forget whence talking about Pak and FacistIndia is the ChinaFactor!

StatusQuo suited China and suits China and shall keep on suiting China...

Whereas Conductor of ConcertOfDimmocraziez wishes to break the StatuQuo and liberate the confined Ganga from regional bounds... to... well... sing in the said concert.

China wishes to maintain the already established StatusQuo...hence, China shall always assist Pakistan to keep some sort of techo parity with the resident FacistState!

CPEC is a Framework!

We have been trying for past 72yrs to be friendz with the Facists...but they wish us to be totally BD..which is not possible ...ever...as It is Against Nature!

Kabulistan enterprise was/is to break the status quo... it has failed.

In this context I do fear that the FacistRegime and its backers, including the Conductor, will try something else... might be a desparate move...

For practical purposes it would be instructive to start considering China as AfroPakOceanRegion power as well..

We should have/we could have/ we would have/.... all the same SwanSong... only in the Hot Monsoon and not in St. Pietersberg!

I like the Nineth!

Stuck. Everyone is stuck!

Mangus

It's fun making them unnerve standing by their side

 

[Hamza913]

Some proof would be nice.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Some proof would be nice.

Interestingly i am sure we have HUD cam footage of MiG-21BISON shoot down...i do not know why they did not release it. they could easily edit/censor any info perimeters that should not be known but that footage should be released.

 

[Mighty Lion]

To silent poison

To everyone in this world

 

[Shabi1]

Interestingly i am sure we have HUD cam footage of MiG-21BISON shoot down...i do not know why they did not release it. they could easily edit/censor any info perimeters that should not be known but that footage should be released.

All of the shots were BVR so HUD video won't show kills since beyond visual range engagements. The proof would be on radar screen recordings, radar screen tracks are valid to analyze a kill but only when the person has access to the actual radars and can authenticate source. The radar grab video will also be confidential as it would show the tactics used and that is something we still would like to keep ambiguity in.

If you share a picture with media anyone can claim its a photo shop since no way to validate, plus since its mountainous terrain aircraft can appear and disappear on instances. The confirmation that it has gone off radar and not returned would be via video only. Modi Jee and his air force them self claim aircraft can hide in clouds .

We have hard evidence of Mig-21 kill and the hard proof that it didnt fire any missiles or release its drop tanks before crashing as well as its blackbox so F-16 kill claim rebuked. Plus the fact that they said no AWACs airborne at the time so their sig int is made up. Only SU-30MKI confirmation pending, our airmen say they did and the fact that India has lost confidence in their SU-30s is proof enough for us. No need to get worked up further.

 

[Ultima Thule]

To everyone in this world

In what world do you live on kid

 

[Irfan Baloch]

O bhai you can still shoot 9 IAF planes in their own air space just like you could have done on 27 Feb, then why dont you ? There are international RULES OF ENGAGEMENT (ROIs) according to which you can shoot a plane. The most important is that the plane should have intruded in your air space and to prove that the debris of the plane should fall in your own area otherwise it will be a violation of International law. Still if you want to bring down IAF planes the option is available even today but you should war game all the consequences first. Have you ever heard the word ESCALATION LADDER ?

yea heard of that
we stopped at its first step

 

[airomerix]

yea heard of that
we stopped at its first step

Rightly so.

 

[Windjammer]

yea heard of that
we stopped at its first step

No dear sir, we took the fight to them in broad daylight, the world saw, we also shot down their aircraft and captured the pilot.....i'll say that's a lot more than showing some fancy colour cranes sketches.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Rightly so.

thats what i am telling myself
there is a lot of poetry to convince us why our action or lack of it was right.


and then there is a tragic realisation
that Indians wouldve not hesitated to shoot down all locked down PAF jets.

they had already broken the threshold by violating our sovereignty they had bombed mainland Pakistan not a disputed part of Kashmir.

the debate over right or wrong is irrelevant
we didn't because we couldn't escalate.

No dear sir, we took the fight to them in broad daylight, the world saw, we also shot down their aircraft and captured the pilot.....i'll say that's a lot more than showing some fancy colour cranes sketches.

no denying there
whatever was done was great

 

[Windjammer]

no denying there
whatever was done was great

Even if our response was measured, it was sheer humiliation for Indians as they had nothing to show for their misadventure....they were desperate to take revenge but couldn't openly challenge the PAF and instead tried to sneak in behind their airliners.....but PAF was on top of it's game.

 

[thinkingcap81]

They cannot “detect” them per se but based on situational aware(distance between them and enemy, speed and altitude of aircraft , range of enemy weapons etc) they can surmise their chances of survival and position accordingly.

Thanks for the info.

Defence forums on both sides of the border have become echo chambers for each one's narratives. It is impossible to make out the truth except for people who actually know what happened. This is a sad state of affairs.

The sudden purchase of more modern missiles by the IAF suggests that something less than desirable had happened. From Pakistan's side the reduced rhetoric of nuke attacks on India, even in this forum, also suggests that Pakistan's thought process has altered.

IAF might have come up against a well executed pre-determined plan with numbers favouring PAF.

For me an important takeaway from 26-27 Feb 2019 was that the Indian position of having a conflict, such that Pakistan cannot speak of nukes, is in some sense established. This means that Pakistan will need to restrategize and focus more on conventional deterrence. The negative thing is that we have entered a period of uncertainty about war and about what could be the triggers for a limited conflict.

 

[The Eagle]

I have another theory...

PAF on oders of PakState didn't make 9 extra kills to help Modi win a landslide... otherwise, with 11 kills Modi would have been toast...

And now look.. Modi has been doing great job...benefitting Pakistan in short, medium and long terms!

I will try to pen my opinion based upon possible thought process in regard to 9 locked IAF jets.

• IAF violated Pakistan Airspace on 26th but wasn't shot?
  • Almost every sane mind argues and most knew as well that Modi pulled a political show after Pulwama. Pulwama was done by a Kashmiri obtaining all the everything for attack from within Indian Occupied Kashmir. I am sure and pattern tells as well that R&AW deliberately let him to have all arrangements & strike, in view of long term gains to help Modi win elections which proved by Modi's reaction. Modi immediately blamed Pakistan and pulled a stunt with the help of Military & Indian Intelligence. IAF plan was to violate the airspace & shoot weapons but cleverly done so within the parameters of ROEs so not to get shot within Pakistan hence, dropped their payload far from target and totally opposed to the firing rules & parameters. IAF knew very well that how much time it has to turn back and save their lives. PAF didn't take a shot under the same ROEs but that couldn't be left without response.

• Beating the IAF so will not look back; scenario:
  • Does that made any sense despite shooting down couple of their jets? They in return came up with awarding Abhinandan with Veer Chakra and then went on to award rest of the fleet with Dodgers designation and now, just heard that the lady who was supposed to save Abhinandan through RT is being awarded for yet another medal. So, whether you shoot them all or one; doesn't matter to an enemy like Modi that has no self respect.

• Shooting down all the fleet so Modi wouldn't re-commit:
  • Can anyone believe that Modi will sit down? an extremist like him will never stop unless total wipe-out as such mentality has no intellect to read about after math but keeps insisting upon bloodshed even it has already costed him fairly. Had it been a self respecting & dignified rival; would have tone down immediately and accepted the white wash even if it was a single jet on that day.

• The consequences of shooting down 9 of them:
  • DG ISPR said it clearly that we retained the escalation ladder. That is the key why Pakistan didn't want to escalate. Pakistan reads the enemy, knew his mentality & the game of trap being played to pull the country into a full blown war. Even if it wasn't a full blown war but a conflict apparently was planned in a manner that would have bleed Pakistan economically more & more when situation was already worst. Once conflict and threat arose; the country would have witnessed investors shying away, economy coming down & a risk to the investment in shape of CPEC and other projects. Modi mindset is not about peace if beaten black & blue because a man with moral will immediately realize his loss i.e. a fighter jet was enough that too with an Indian pilot being captured and returned for peace. It doesn't matter to RSS fascists.

• If shooting down 2 or 9 doesn't matter, why not to shoot them all at first?
  • We argue that shooting them 2 or 9, if didn't make any difference then why not to do so? Here, on this point I think that it would have caused more damage & PR loss to Pakistan as compare to India. In-fact Modi trap would have won diplomatically due to our own short comings in foreign relations. Pakistan would have been painted as an aggressor & offender as well. given the odds against Pakistan, one can calculate that why the leadership choose to remain with plan, SOPs & ROEs. Had it been the full blown war; history speaks volume that how far PAF can go then. I can say for Pakistan that we don't care about what an enemy will do. Military calculates everything with benefits & losses. The plan will be always be like to have an upper hand without a single loss. An escalation could result in civilian loss having a madman like Modi. It wasn't because PAF didn't want to or couldn't do so but these decisions are made in view of everything. They are not some bunch of street gangs looking to live this days, having no home or any worry about the people back at home. A civilian loss into the hands of enemy is in-fact a loss no less than of Military hence, one has to save it from happening by one way or another. Pakistan retaliated and also saved from losses which was result of best planning as such and calculating all the aspects. Emotions aren't strategical tactics but only necessary during action. Plannings are based upon best possible, safe & impacting tactics.

• Pakistan choose to send a message, show strength & capability and retain escalation ladder?
  • We know that Pakistan was retaliating against Indian violation of LoC, Pakistani Airspace & killings our two trees adding an unlucky crow. Pakistan could have erased all the targets in direct hit rather, choose to convey it that Modi may be pulling for something to help him win Election but we mean serious business and it could be them next time. They got the message, though. Then PAF only choose to shoot one fighter that was threatening PAF strike package and the one who violated our airspace. I am saying again that if IAF could have crossed the border with all the squadrons; would have been coming down like rain. Nobody should forget that whole package on that day with fighter sweep, CAP & strike role. The plan was based upon the maximum & possible response of India. We didn't shoot their fighters within Indian Airspace because we didn't want to escalate things neither to be called as aggressors nor to harm our progress. Pakistan knew the plan that in-case going a bit out of rules, will definitely help the so-called world police to come after us. Know the consequences because it is not some cow boy movie. Having a demoralized and confidently shameless rival, is a threat not just for us but the whole region. Less beating, the more mix of pity & thoughts so a fascist & warmonger shouldn't go suicidal. PAF can easily provide every single proof including all the ground targets, the MKI and losses of India but the things is that the message is delivered and not to make a madman like Modi to go suicidal in view of our position & progress of nation which needed time with peace. Any action warranting a long escalation or a full blown war could have cost us more. Not to forget the disrupt Easter Border where India was fully in control of Kabul and could have used anything. Iran sector was already hot in view of US aggression or conflict arising.

• Whether that was a full blown war or not?
  • These retaliations & operations are not full blown war. Both the countries, Pakistan & India knew it well. There are certain levels & steps and happenings before a full blown war otherwise the rest of the world is coming after you and that is a written, settled & understood law. Operation Swift Retort was a limited scale conflict to prove capability, courage, skills & safety of Pakistan. There is a huge difference between a conflict as such & full blown war. Had it been not the case; the whole world would have been fighting till date for one reason or another. I thanks ALMIGHTY when I see that people like Modi are not in power corridors & decision makers of Pakistan. It is indeed a relief that short sighted & reactionary people aren't dealing top of the affairs within Civil or Military establishment. The concerned decision makers are fully aware of everything, best possible steps and the traps being set every other day against Pakistan.