PAF Heroes Who Surprised India !

[SQ8]

With the proliferation of MANPADS, this is not the case anymore.

A Manpad with an "advertised" ceiling of 10k ft has been known to intercept at 13.5k ft. This means that a/c's have to maintain a min alt of 15k ft, from the highest point, in the op area. At that alt it is extremely difficult to strafe.

Although pilots are still taught, how & when to strafe, in case SEAD/DEAD has been achieved.

It happened and still is happening with the low intensity conflicts. Those will continue for a long time

 

[Cuirassier]

You din't got my point. There is difference between rejecting any theory than to claiming Impossible to Independently Verify. I explained that coz u used the word Rejected which wasn't the case. Anyways truth will be out sooner than later.



Got ur point on difference between evidence and proof however as unfortunately there is very little scope for concrete evidences as the plane debri would be in Azad Kashmir and thus must have been cleared thoroughly and IAF won't the Irrefutable Evidences due to security reasons, will wait to let more info trickle down.

Keep it up with optimistic approach [emoji1787]. Delusional

 

[SIPRA]

......... plane debri would be in Azad Kashmir and thus must have been cleared thoroughly and IAF won't the Irrefutable Evidences due to security reasons, will wait to let more info trickle down.

Yes, we are waiting.

"Lagay raho, Munna Bhai"

 

[Khafee]

If Pakistan and the US presented convincing proof that no F-16 was lost, will India let the matter go? The radar tracks that India gave so far is hardly evidence, let alone a solid piece in a chain of evidences. So when the world sees the lack of evidences from one side and apparently more credible evidences from the other, it is difficult for us to be sympathetic to India. I understand that national pride is at stake here, and the Indian Air Force now have a black mark on its record, but objectively speaking, the more India persist in trying to salvage some face, the more face India will lose.

Either knowingly, or unknowingly, they are ignoring the elephant in the room. Either way, they look like fools.

You have a knack for explaining technical things in simple English, would you be kind enough to explain how this particular system works.

Thanks!

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/ale50

It happened and still is happening with the low intensity conflicts. Those will continue for a long time

A one liner from you is extremely disappointing. Pls do elaborate.

 

[SQ8]

Either knowingly, or unknowingly, they are ignoring the elephant in the room. Either way, they look like fools.

You have a knack for explaining technical things in simple English, would you be kind enough to explain how this particular system works.

Thanks!

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/ale50


A one liner from you is extremely disappointing. Pls do elaborate.

The Taliban have no airforce, ISIS has no airforce, even with Manpads present Russian Su-25s were engaging Georgian forces in strafe attacks.. and F-16s engaged Taliban positions with Strafe attacks.

You can simply carry more projectiles versus guided missiles with their electronics and they still are effective.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

$100 + million dollar aircraft are not built and designed to fight Taliban primarily.

SU25 is built for ground strike in particular---. F16 had similar design parameter---. It is an almost 50 years old design.

To compare its function and utility to a 5th gen or a 4.5 gen aircraft is outrageous and defies common sense---.

The issue in discussion here was one aircraft which has run out of missiles to get into a gunfight with another aircraft---and then stretched it to any scenario.

In case of straffing Taliban---yes the aircraft can---but the Taliban have NO 4.5 gen aircraft coming to rescue and launch a BVR missile from 50+ miles or 80 miles away at that aircraft---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Here is an article about a F14 iranian pilot talking about shooting an AIM 9 at close range into an Iraqi mig and what happens after that---.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/pilots-incredible-tale-iran-iraq-war-65216

 

[gambit]

You have a knack for explaining technical things in simple English, would you be kind enough to explain how this particular system works.

Thanks!

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/ale50

Sure...

The operative part of the Raytheon source is this...

...towed decoy acts as a preferential target that lures enemy missiles away by providing a much larger radar cross section than the aircraft.

Using the AIM-120 as example, the missile's radar operating freq is in the X band, a common region that is the best compromise for range and target resolutions.

- Airspeed
- Altitude
- Heading
- Aspect angle

The AMRAAM -- in all of its versions -- employs sophisticated proportional navigation (PN) algorithms to pursue and calculate a collision course to the target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_navigation

If you drive and have to negotiate a traffic circle (roundabout) you have just performed one such PN algorithm.

Radar detection provides comprehensive target resolutions. The more complex those algorithms, the better the quality of the missile, and the higher the lethality. Radar guided artillery uses PN guidance against moving targets or to delay multiple shells on the same target. Deployed PN navigation laws in weapons systems are top secret, as in felony class.

The corollary is that the lower the quality of those target resolutions, such as provided by a passive sensor like IR, the less the need for sophisticated algorithms, or that more sophisticated algorithms are simply wasted. This is why IR sensors are accompanied by the simpler variants of 'pursuit' or tail chase navigation laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pursuit_guidance

However, in radar detection, there is an inverse relationship between array size and beamwidth: The smaller the array the wider the beamwidth, and the larger the array, the smaller the beamwidth.

A large beamwidth is good for volume search. A small beamwidth is good for individual objects.

http://meteorologytraining.tpub.com/14271/css/14271_60.htm

Beam width varies directly with wavelength and inversely with antenna size. Radar systems that produce relatively small beam widths generally provide greater target resolution.

Here is one effect of beamwidth in relation to target...

Depending how many objects are in side the beam and how they are arrayed, lateral or linear, the radar will see one object and multiple ghosts.

The cause is the resolution cell.

https://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-029/_4335.htm

The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is determined by the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical beamwidths of the transmitting radar. Note: The radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell.

What the towed decoy does is exploit this antenna size vs beamwidth weakness that is inherent in all radars. The towed decoy is active, meaning it transmit RF signals to create that larger radar cross section (RCS).

We tow the decoy in order to preserve that ghosting effect for as long as possible. Discarding the the decoy, no matter how EM 'loud' it maybe, the aircraft and the decoy will quickly separate so that the missile will reacquire the aircraft.

Towing distance. Too close to the aircraft and it would be pointless because the missile will see both as one object anyway. Too far from the aircraft and the decoy may momentarily escape the beam and allow the missile's radar to reacquire the aircraft.

Signal discrimination. The missile's radar knows what kind of signals it transmits, everything from base frequency to pulse repetition (PRF). It takes any echo and compares to what was transmitted. The threat could be from a larger ground based SAM to the smaller air-air missile. The decoy must be responsive to that variable which means the decoy will have a threat library.

Multiple threats. The decoy must be able to distinguish different radar threat parameters. All radars are considered 'threats'. A friendly source does not negate that status. The decoy must be able to target specific threats and to focus its countermeasures to ignore friendly sources.

The technical details of these characters are secret, of course, but the general operational ideas should be enough for the interested laymen.

 

[Keysersoze]

Din't same apply on you?

I have tried to stick to the facts here. I have no evidence of IAF losses other than the mig21 or the helicopter so I would never claim that other aircraft got shot down.

Having said that I doubt you have any evidence other than circumstantial. but you soooo Desperately want to believe it wasn't a humiliation, that you leap onto anything to desperately prove your "truth"

Bet you have this on your wall

 

[Keysersoze]

If Pakistan and the US presented convincing proof that no F-16 was lost, will India let the matter go? The radar tracks that India gave so far is hardly evidence, let alone a solid piece in a chain of evidences. So when the world sees the lack of evidences from one side and apparently more credible evidences from the other, it is difficult for us to be sympathetic to India. I understand that national pride is at stake here, and the Indian Air Force now have a black mark on its record, but objectively speaking, the more India persist in trying to salvage some face, the more face India will lose.

It won't matter. It will then become an issue of "The US is just trying to protect their product". This is a national ego matter for India now.

 

[Riz]

It won't matter. It will then become an issue of "The US is just trying to protect their product". This is a national ego matter for India now.

What a stupid logic u indians comes up with... Since day 1 we have US made jets and u indians have Russian made jets... We fought so many wars where u downed our jets with Russian made jets... And US accepted the loss .. How the fuk they will deny F-16 jet loss of pak now when Lockhead Martin stopped the production of these planes and world is replacing these jets ???

 

[Keysersoze]

What a stupid logic u indians comes up with... Since day 1 we have US made jets and u indians have Russian made jets... We fought so many wars where u downed our jets with Russian made jets... And US accepted the loss .. How the fuk they will deny F-16 jet loss of pak now when Lockhead Martin stopped the production of these planes and world is replacing these jets ???

Sorry is this directed at me?

 

[SIPRA]

Sorry is this directed at me?

Appears, he totally misunderstood you.

 

[Dazzler]

Can anyone guess at what range the su-30 was detected?

 

[Riz]

Sorry is this directed at me?

Sorry i was talking about indians