PAF can counter India’s new war doctrine, says air chief

[SQ8]

Sir

I said what I knew with my limited knowledge... I am No Engineer would tell you when I become one... degree aside...
The Semi-Active Radar Homing is thing of Past... Sir such missiles are vulnerable to be Jammed easily... would like to know which version of Aspide your AF fields or Its Kinematic characteristics... Since most of the countries have or are replacing the Semi-Active seekers with better Active ones... I specifically mentioned SAP-14 and SAP-518 in the post you deleted...

Thanks

Not correct.
The active seeker is undoubtedly a plus.. but not a must.
The Sa-17M is considered one of the deadliest SAMs out there..
yet it still relies on a semi-active seeker.
This is not an aircraft or a very long range system..
When target illumination is possible all the way till detonation.. high accuracy can be achieved in any case.
Only the latest S-300 variants have active radar homing.. the Sm-2 of the US has SARH
The newer RIM-161 has an active seeker..

The active seekers on any of these long range systems have little to do with jamming .. instead have more to do with ensuring engagement accuracy. After all, ensuring a hit at 120km is helped by having your own seeker.
But if any aircraft can jam a 100km S-300's radar from far off.. then those missiles too have little use.

However..things have come a long way from the Sa-2,3 and 6..
Missile radar operators and radar systems have found ways to counter jamming.. certain techniques which are revealed to those having worked on C4I systems.
The SPADA 2000 is NOT the best SAM out there.. but it is one of the best systems.. proven in tests under severe ECM conditions.

---------- Post added at 06:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 AM ----------

but still an an unguarded opening is an opening that can be made use of by any enemy!!!!

Please send your advice to the IAF to fly to Afghanistan and then attack from there.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Please send your advice to the IAF to fly to Afghanistan and then attack from there.

Indian Mig-29s (supposedly) in Tajikistan can be used to exploit that loop hole.

 

[DARKY]

Not correct.
The active seeker is undoubtedly a plus.. but not a must.
The Sa-17M is considered one of the deadliest SAMs out there..
yet it still relies on a semi-active seeker.
This is not an aircraft or a very long range system..
When target illumination is possible all the way till detonation.. high accuracy can be achieved in any case.
Only the latest S-300 variants have active radar homing.. the Sm-2 of the US has SARH
The newer RIM-161 has an active seeker..

The active seekers on any of these long range systems have little to do with jamming .. instead have more to do with ensuring engagement accuracy. After all, ensuring a hit at 120km is helped by having your own seeker.
But if any aircraft can jam a 100km S-300's radar from far off.. then those missiles too have little use.

However..things have come a long way from the Sa-2,3 and 6..
Missile radar operators and radar systems have found ways to counter jamming.. certain techniques which are revealed to those having worked on C4I systems.
The SPADA 2000 is NOT the best SAM out there.. but it is one of the best systems.. proven in tests under severe ECM conditions.

All points considered... the Active seekers provide the capability to Home on Jamming source while in Active mode... and switch its frequencies which is a must when your enemy has decent EW capability... say a battery of Aim-120 on a Humvee it better than the bulky SPADA system... If you are getting my point...

---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------

Now, lets discuss about the doctrine how it will be implemented?

1. Brahmos the worlds fastest LA cruise missile will be launched to destroy pakistan's SAMs, Radar network, airbases and Command & control centers.

2. Followed by Air launched Brahmos to wipe out the targets with the wheels.

3. They will be supplemented by LCH + AH-64D Apache Longbow for suppression of AD along with behind enemy lines commando operation.

4. Then Su 30 MKIs + Rafale will go ahead and show the brutal power and wipe out enemy defence, systems and bases.

Sir

To neutralize enemy differences the anti radiation version of Kh-31 would be used more rather than Brahmos.
And It would rather be Rafale who would do the SEAD role from closer ranges with MKI being at stand off... and Apache too.

 

[Skull and Bones]

4. Then Su 30 MKIs + Rafale will go ahead and show the brutal power and wipe out enemy defence, systems and bases.

MKI's will be the last entrant into the show, in the beginning days of war, MKIs will just guard Indian airspace.

Mirage 2000 and Rafale will be used in SEAD missions, after neutralizing enemy Air defenses, MKIs will be used for heavy strikes, like destroying enemy bunkers and all those stuffs.

 

[DARKY]

MKI's will be the last entrant into the show, in the beginning days of war, MKIs will just guard Indian airspace.

Mirage 2000 and Rafale will be used in SEAD missions, after neutralizing enemy Air defenses, MKIs will be used for heavy strikes, like destroying enemy bunkers and all those stuffs.

They would Rather be flying High and fast and doing Air-superiority Missions.

 

[God of Death]

All points considered... the Active seekers provide the capability to Home on Jamming source while in Active mode... and switch its frequencies which is a must when your enemy has decent EW capability... say a battery of Aim-120 on a Humvee it better than the bulky SPADA system... If you are getting my point...

---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------



Sir

To neutralize enemy differences the anti radiation version of Kh-31 would be used more rather than Brahmos.
And It would rather be Rafale who would do the SEAD role from closer ranges with MKI being at stand off... and Apache too.

During Operation Desert Storm, eight AH-64As guided by four MH-53 Pave Low IIIs, were used to destroy a portion of the Iraqi radar network to allow bomber aircraft into Iraq without detection.

Continue reading at NowPublic.com: US Army AH-64D Apache | NowPublic Photo Archives US Army AH-64D Apache | NowPublic Photo Archives

 

[Skull and Bones]

They would Rather be flying High and fast and doing Air-superiority Missions.

Still, can't outrun ground based SAMs in both altitude and speed.

 

[DARKY]

Still, can't outrun ground based SAMs in both altitude and speed.

That depends on the SAM...

Having supersonic combat ability also includes the ability to break the locks made by ground radars while inducing sudden loss or gain in speed... or evasive maneuvers at High speed which break the Radar lock to leave the missile on its own.. while the Active missile seeker once in active range locks on to a target aircraft and homes in without any guidance from the Ground Radars.

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------

During Operation Desert Storm, eight AH-64As guided by four MH-53 Pave Low IIIs, were used to destroy a portion of the Iraqi radar network to allow bomber aircraft into Iraq without detection.

Continue reading at NowPublic.com: US Army AH-64D Apache | NowPublic Photo Archives US Army AH-64D Apache | NowPublic Photo Archives

That is why the Ka band radar on Apache was a Must in the Helicopter tender.... along with ALQ series ECM and Jamming pods.

 

[SQ8]

That depends on the SAM...

Having supersonic combat ability also includes the ability to break the locks made by ground radars while inducing sudden loss or gain in speed... or evasive maneuvers at High speed which break the Radar lock to leave the missile on its own.. while the Active missile seeker once in active range locks on to a target aircraft and homes in without any guidance from the Ground Radars.

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------



That is why the Ka band radar on Apache was a Must in the Helicopter tender.... along with ALQ series ECM and Jamming pods.

You are assuming that the SAm does not have the ability to resume a lock..
The Spada is not long range.. maximum time to engagement is less than a minute.
Pirouettes and dancing across the sky will not break a lock on a dual track and guidance radar.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Hi,

Since it has been suggested that Pakistani AWACS is very crucial, what are the methods than any airforce eg IAF use to neutralize them? Can a few MKIs or couple of strike packages and accompanying escorts overwhelm the Pak AWACS & its escorts?

Likewise will PAF target IAF Phalcons?

What kind of losses are acceptable in dealing with the AWACS threat? And are AWACS generally used near extensive SAM coverage sites?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

Since it has been suggested that Pakistani AWACS is very crucial, what are the methods than any airforce eg IAF use to neutralize them? Can a few MKIs or couple of strike packages and accompanying escorts overwhelm the Pak AWACS & its escorts?

Likewise will PAF target IAF Phalcons?

What kind of losses are acceptable in dealing with the AWACS threat? And are AWACS generally used near extensive SAM coverage sites?

the answer to this will be speculative
so I will assume that the answer is yes to the last sentence.

knowing that there are threats to the AWACS, both air forces will try to to protect them. the missiles that can take out these airborne early warning platforms cant be fired from their max range as suggested by the fanclub. any BVR or so claled AWACs killer has to be inside the effective range zone otherwise the missile fired will just self destruct harmlessly if it fails to home in on its target.

the other thing to consider is the flight path of the AWACS, if its already flying away then by the time the so called AWACS killer covers the suggested 200km distance, there wont be anything there for it to destroy. if the travel distance is shorter then indeed it will outpace the plane and catch it if the AWACS doesnt have its own assortment of countermeasures.

 

[deckingraj]

Even if there were loop holes, it would be extremely hard for India to exploit them. If we set the operation in Abbotabad as a benchmark to carry out a strike in Pakistan, than i am sorry to say there is no other nation in the world that can imitate what the US did. The US is decades ahead when it comes to her military machine. No nation in the world can field stealth helos and the level of sophistication/training that US forces can execute.

Now this is again taking it too far....if there are gaps and IAF is able to utilize them then you are asking for trouble...Keep in mind that the only thing that helps your fighters stand against the likes of MKI's is the early detection by your AWACS which in turn will be used by the likes of JF-17 to take them on...In short early detection is the key here...Now if you are specifically asking for similar operation like OBL then i cannot say for sure...Though our chief did say that we have the capability yet ai personally will take it with pinch of salt....

 

[deckingraj]

One critical thing members here are missing is Indian space assets.

I have no doubt in mind that China will work overtime to kill that advantage(if any) of IAF...what do you say???

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Now this is again taking it too far....if there are gaps and IAF is able to utilize them then you are asking for trouble...Keep in mind that the only thing that helps your fighters stand against the likes of MKI's is the early detection by your AWACS which in turn will be used by the likes of JF-17 to take them on...In short early detection is the key here...Now if you are specifically asking for similar operation like OBL then i cannot say for sure...Though our chief did say that we have the capability yet ai personally will take it with pinch of salt....

the assumption to repeat the OBL style operation and use the "still existing" (assumption) holes in the radar coverage can only hold true if the Pakistani military has not addressed that issue (specially due to Indian bases in Tajikistan).

so indeed IAF will be even able to conduct missions in its propeller based aeroplanes from the West of Pakistan if that side is not protected and covered like the East side is.

only time will tell
until then let the fanboys fart loud and high

 

[deckingraj]

Hi,

Since it has been suggested that Pakistani AWACS is very crucial, what are the methods than any airforce eg IAF use to neutralize them? Can a few MKIs or couple of strike packages and accompanying escorts overwhelm the Pak AWACS & its escorts?

Likewise will PAF target IAF Phalcons?

What kind of losses are acceptable in dealing with the AWACS threat? And are AWACS generally used near extensive SAM coverage sites?

AWACS are not going to be operating near the border....They will surely be heavily guarded..In fact they are the back-bone of PAF performance against IAF onslaught and PAF will do anything to save them...I personally feel if at all any AWACS fell then it would be by shear luck....