PAF called in for air strikes in mir ali area of n/waziristan

[su-47]

why not try snipers?

 

[fatman17]

su-47, this debate will linger too long.
the people who r in the thick of things know better, so lets leave it at that.

 

[Flintlock]

Civilians killed in Pakistan battle


At least 47 Pakistani soldiers have been killed
during the four days of fierce fighting [AFP]


Dozens of civilians, including women and children, have been killed as Pakistani military jets targeted the positions of tribal fighters in North Waziristan, residents say.
A military spokesman said that "militant hideouts" were targeted in Tuesday's air raids but local residents said a market had been hit killing dozens of people.


At least 250 people, including 47 soldiers, have died in four days of fighting in the tribal region.

On Wednesday, thousands of tribesmen gathered in the village of Epi to bury 50 people killed when about one dozen explosions destroyed shops and homes, residents said.


Special report


Abdul Sattar, a grocery shop owner, told the Associated Press news agency earlier that he had counted more than 60 dead and 150 injured after the bombings.
"Some did not have heads, hands or legs," Sattar said.

Residents of the village, about 4km from the town of Mir Ali where the fighting has been centred, said they were continuing to pull bodies from the rubble.

Homes destroyed

Sher Khan, a resident, told Reuters news agency he estimated that nearly 90 per cent of families had left the town, leaving behind a few men to guard their belongings.


"The main bazaar of Mir Ali is sealed by the army," Khan said. "All shops are closed. We have nothing to eat. That's why I have sent my family to Bannu."

Other residents said that most people had abandoned their homes after more than 50 houses were damaged.
Faridullah Khan, a local tribesman, said: "Our homes have been damaged severely, most of the families have migrated to relatives' homes in neighbouring towns."

Arshad said air raids earlier destroyed most houses around Essori, a village near Mir Ali where most of the fighting was concentrated.

The military has said that the fierce fighting broke out on Sunday after a roadside bomb detonated next to a lorry carrying paramilitary troops.

Al Jazeera English - News - Civilians Killed In Pakistan Battle

Seems exactly like Kashmir, except the scale is much much larger and the PA is being extremely sloppy and ham-handed.

 

[F.O.X]

why not try snipers?

Bcoz there is not so much difference between local people & between the militants, so using Snipers can be result in Civilian causalities that PA cannot afford.


Regards
Wilco

 

[Flintlock]

Bcoz there is not so much difference between local people & between the militants, so using Snipers can be result in Civilian causalities that PA cannot afford.


Regards
Wilco

So air strikes will not cause casualties, but snipers will?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Wilco,

Have you ever since an air strike and its devastation?

I am astounded that you feel a sniper is more lethal than the air force.

Common sense would suggest that if it were so, then countries would not waste colossal amount of money to buy military aircraft!

 

[ali786]

The PAF bombing Muslims? I am completely outraged, Muslims attacking and killing other Muslims, this is completely not allowed in Islam and anyone who does so will face the punishment in hellfire in the hereafter. Of course even killing non muslims is not allowed but killing a believer; whom beleives in the last day and is a follower in the last messenger of Allah is a very big sin

the PAfs air strikes in n/waziristan sickens me to the pit of my stomach it just makes me think where we muslims are heading in the world if these things are happning?

 

[Bull]

The PAF bombing Muslims? I am completely outraged, Muslims attacking and killing other Muslims, this is completely not allowed in Islam and anyone who does so will face the punishment in hellfire in the hereafter. Of course even killing non muslims is not allowed but killing a believer; whom beleives in the last day and is a follower in the last messenger of Allah is a very big sin

the PAfs air strikes in n/waziristan sickens me to the pit of my stomach it just makes me think where we muslims are heading in the world if these things are happning?

Isnt these the kind of guy that we are speaking about here.

 

[F.O.X]

Wilco,

Have you ever since an air strike and its devastation?

I am astounded that you feel a sniper is more lethal than the air force.

Common sense would suggest that if it were so, then countries would not waste colossal amount of money to buy military aircraft!

I have seen so much destruction with the Air Strikes that you cannot imagine.

Y i don't suggest to use Snipers bcoz PA is not going for the first shot they are till now just replying to fire by enemy. Using Snipers will cause too many civilian causalities considering that militants & civilians looks like same. but if there are no civilians around then i dont mind using snipers.

i hope you got your answer!

Regards
Wilco

 

[F.O.X]

The PAF bombing Muslims? I am completely outraged, Muslims attacking and killing other Muslims, this is completely not allowed in Islam and anyone who does so will face the punishment in hellfire in the hereafter. Of course even killing non muslims is not allowed but killing a believer; whom beleives in the last day and is a follower in the last messenger of Allah is a very big sin

the PAfs air strikes in n/waziristan sickens me to the pit of my stomach it just makes me think where we muslims are heading in the world if these things are happning?

just a line for you .

Muslim who kill innocent Muslims for their personal cause are not Muslims, so Terrorists we are fighting with are not Muslims. OK

Regards
Wilco

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I have seen so much destruction with the Air Strikes that you cannot imagine.

Indeed, where?

Why should your being under air strike be beyond anyone's imagination? Only Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be beyond imagination since they were nuclear strikes and has never happened again!

And if your experience of an air strike is indeed beyond imagination, then one surely would appreciate your sharing the horrors so that we all can learn.

Y i don't suggest to use Snipers bcoz PA is not going for the first shot they are till now just replying to fire by enemy. Using Snipers will cause too many civilian causalities considering that militants & civilians looks like same. but if there are no civilians around then i dont mind using snipers.

It is but natural that when one is combating wayward and misguided citizens, they should wait to be fired upon and then fire; or else innocents will be killed and the aggrieved will automatically want revenge leading to escalation and more misguided citizens against the State.

Of course there is no differentiation between a militant and an innocent citizen.

But could you explain how the sniper would kill the militant and not the civilian in a more devastating way with greater numbers than an air strike where the pilot is way up in the sky and, as per your logic, able to discern a militant from a n innocent civilian and thus be less devastating to the innocents?

Who can differentiate a person better, a man on the ground or a man in an aircraft? By your logic, a man in the aircraft. Don't you think that is a h\flawed logic?

i hope you got your answer!

No.

It defies logic.

 

[F.O.X]

It is but natural that when one is combating wayward and misguided citizens,

Citizens are not misguided! can you explain how they are ?

But could you explain how the sniper would kill the militant and not the civilian in a more devastating way with greater numbers than an air strike where the pilot is way up in the sky and, as per your logic, able to discern a militant from a n innocent civilian and thus be less devastating to the innocents?

Well Ok let me explain you in details.

In the areas of NW the strikes by the militants are sudden( i am sure you know that), so how will you use snipers when PA is not allowed to attack first they just repell. so how will you place your snipers considering that you dont know from where the attack will come from. & in NW the attacks are done by by very short Range & most of the time by Explosive. & PAF is not used bcoz of fear of heavy civilian causalities but incase of correct intelligence then PAF is called bcoz millitants were in a specified area little away from the village & population so PAF was used will Precision Guided bombs with the some of the best piolts PAF has to minimize the Risk.

Using Snipers is not Bad but considering the area & situtaion of NW it is not a good Idea as far as i am concerned.


Regards
Wilco

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I disagree WILCO. Do they not worship Allah (pboh)?

If they do, then they, albeit wayward and sinners, but still muslim.

A bit of a theological question, better answered by people more learned than me, but my gut reaction is to say that no, they are not Muslims, because their actions violate the basic principles of justice, equality, and respect for all living things that the Quran demands.

But it is also true that only Allah knows a man's heart - and therefore humans are not capable of passing judgment, and shouldn't endeavor to, for such a path is what has led us to Fatwas by Mullahs, against people whom they deem as "non- Muslims", based on their personal interpretations and biases against certain beliefs possessed by those people.

We should refrain from calling them non- Muslims, though we should attempt to, for PR purposes, the majority of Pakistan still looking at religion as the moral guiding light of their times, utilize Islamic scholars in discrediting their actions as "un Islamic" and contrary to the teachings of our great religion.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Why not snipers-----well sniper is a kinder and gentler form of response that the tribesmen didnot understand very well. Well it was time for heavy guns and air strikes---and I don't understand why there was a cease fire to bury the 250 dead---if they want war with the state, then they need to be prepared for it. Pakistani army has too many half hearted skirmishes against these tribesmen for too long---which has given the enemy too much confidence, power of resilience and arrogance. They have been openly flaunting their power right in the face of the Gen Musharraf. You cannot pickup a weapon iagainst the millitary without facing the music.

 

[EagleEyes]

Tribesmen Urge Pakistan to Halt Air Raids After Heavy Civilian and Combatant Toll

PESHAWAR, Pakistan, Oct. 10 — Tribesmen appealed to the Pakistani military on Wednesday to cease air raids in the tribal regions near Afghanistan so they could bury some 60 people killed in heavy fighting with militants over the last few days.

The military was also counting its losses, and one security official, who asked not to be named, said that more than 60 members of the security forces had been killed in the four days of fighting. Scores of people have fled the area and taken refuge with the wounded outside the region.

The fighting has been the fiercest in the tribal areas in several years and has been concentrated in the area of Mir Ali in the tribal region of North Waziristan, which the Taliban and Al Qaeda have long used as a base. It seems to have halted after heavy casualties on both sides and among the civilian population.

A security official said the militants had left the area, and had probably pulled back to the Shawal Mountains, a remote area close to the Afghan border that has been used by members of the Taliban and foreign Qaeda militants. The local tribesmen asked the military to stop the bombardment because the militants had left, the official said.

A group of local tribesmen met with military officials in Miram Shah, the capital of North Waziristan, where the military has a base, and requested a cessation of hostilities so they could bury their dead, local journalists reported. Residents reached by telephone said that except for a morning round of shelling, the day was relatively quiet.

Military planes dropped pamphlets on the town of Mir Ali telling the people who had fled their homes that it was safe to return. “The Army will not fire heavy weapons like missiles, artillery and rockets on residential areas,” the pamphlets said, according to townspeople reached by phone.

Officials have said dozens of militants have been killed, but there has been no independent confirmation. Foreign fighters are known to operate in and around Mir Ali. Uzbek fighters were involved in the clashes, and several Arabs commanded the militant forces, the security official said.

The militants ambushed military convoys on Saturday and Sunday, killing about 30 soldiers. The Pakistani air force responded by bombing half a dozen of the surrounding villages.

People living in Mir Ali said villagers buried more than 60 people killed in the bombing raids on Tuesday in the villages of Ipi and Haider Khel. Villagers reported Tuesday that 12 bombs were dropped on the bazaar in Ipi. Many of the dead were civilians; it is not clear if there were also fighters among them.

The security official said that a top commander under Siraj Haqqani, the son of a veteran Afghan mujahedeen leader, Jalaluddin Haqqani, had been confirmed killed on Monday. The militant commander, Eid Niaz Borakhel, was an important lieutenant of Siraj Haqqani and the leader of the Taliban council in the regional headquarters at Miram Shah.

The Haqqanis control the most powerful militant network in the region and are known as important protectors and allies of members of Al Qaeda in the region.

Two shopkeepers in Mir Ali, who asked not to be named, said frightened tribesmen had started fleeing from several villages after the airstrikes and artillery bombardments in the area. They said many families were seen leaving their homes in a string of nine villages around Mir Ali and heading toward the Bannu district along unused railroad tracks to avoid the main roads. Security forces have cordoned off main roads.

“I walked on foot with my family from Mir Ali and reached Bannu in four hours,” said a local journalist, Ihsanullah Dawar, who lives in the area. He said that Mir Ali had been besieged for the last four days and that the main road had been closed to traffic.

Doctors in the hospital in Bannu said that 165 wounded people had been treated, and that 60 of them were in a critical condition, including women and children.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/world/asia/11pakistan.html?ref=world