PAF Air Defence Low Level Sensors

[Bilal Khan 777]

Part of Project Crystal and PADS-77, Pakistan Invested in acquiring Siemens Mobile Pulse Doppler Radars (MPDRs), with 45 Km, 60 Km ,and 90 Km Range and respective models MPDR-45, 60, and 90. These radars have served PAF by filling the gaps in high level radar coverage. These radars have also been part of many crucial action missions of PAF. Owing to their excellent built quality and German Engineering, and Pakistan receiving depot level facilities in Kamra, the system was kept alive beyond its useful live.

Today, MPDR still serves PAF in all national sectors under the newly structured ADGE, and Air Defence Command and Control system developed in-house. However, these radars are out of date with the current ECM environment, and potential candidates for replacement or upgrade.

Does anyone have any information on PAF's plan for upgrade or replacement of MPDR sensors? Kindly keep the discussion civil.

 

[SQ8]

Part of Project Crystal and PADS-77, Pakistan Invested in acquiring Siemens Mobile Pulse Doppler Radars (MPDRs), with 45 Km, 60 Km ,and 90 Km Range and respective models MPDR-45, 60, and 90. These radars have served PAF by filling the gaps in high level radar coverage. These radars have also been part of many crucial action missions of PAF. Owing to their excellent built quality and German Engineering, and Pakistan receiving depot level facilities in Kamra, the system was kept alive beyond its useful live.

Today, MPDR still serves PAF in all national sectors under the newly structured ADGE, and Air Defence Command and Control system developed in-house. However, these radars are out of date with the current ECM environment, and potential candidates for replacement or upgrade.

Does anyone have any information on PAF's plan for upgrade or replacement of MPDR sensors? Kindly keep the discussion civil.

There was a list of candidates laid out in terms of being tested within the low level C4I structure that was being developed in the university in the Sir Syed Syed Memorial on Ataturk road in Isb. But beyond the idea of certain Chinese options(of which I am not keen for nor will ever support), there were ideas of looking at purchasing and using Russian ADA systems and essentially using their search radars as replacements for the MPDRs. The other options was to go European again and Selex had some concept studies back in 2011 which they have now sold to Qatar.

Thales is out of the question due to Rafale and so the options have to come from the 2nd tier suppliers.

 

[Blue Marlin]

There was a list of candidates laid out in terms of being tested within the low level C4I structure that was being developed in the university in the Sir Syed Syed Memorial on Ataturk road in Isb. But beyond the idea of certain Chinese options(of which I am not keen for nor will ever support), there were ideas of looking at purchasing and using Russian ADA systems and essentially using their search radars as replacements for the MPDRs. The other options was to go European again and Selex had some concept studies back in 2011 which they have now sold to Qatar.

Thales is out of the question due to Rafale and so the options have to come from the 2nd tier suppliers.

why are you not keen on Chinese radars? personally i think selex is a good idea but i think it will be to expensive.

Request Rejected

 

[SQ8]

why are you not keen on Chinese radars? personally i think selex is a good idea but i think it will be to expensive.

Request Rejected

Because the Chinese systems have reliability and performance issues. In the simplest terms, they dont do what it says on the tin.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Because the Chinese systems have reliability and performance issues. In the simplest terms, they dont do what it says on the tin.

are you saying this from experience?
also what type of radar is Pakistan looking at if you know, if not what are the possible contenders?

 

[SQ8]

So you r saying jf17 radars r not reliable

That might be an exception, along with the Sd-10 and PL-5E-ii. There are other systems, so its a mixed bag of sweets.

are you saying this from experience?
also what type of radar is Pakistan looking at if you know, if not what are the possible contenders?

Direct experience from having to evaluate between Chinese , US and Turkish systems along with working with them on design. The Latter two are incredibly close in quality of build and exact to performance whilst the Chinese take a while to get there.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Pretty impressive specs of the Kronos System

That might be an exception, along with the Sd-10 and PL-5E-ii. There are other systems, so its a mixed bag of sweets.


Direct experience from having to evaluate between Chinese , US and Turkish systems along with working with them on design. The Latter two are incredibly close in quality of build and exact to performance whilst the Chinese take a while to get there.

@Oscar How would you compare Selex to US systems?

 

[Blue Marlin]

That might be an exception, along with the Sd-10 and PL-5E-ii. There are other systems, so its a mixed bag of sweets.


Direct experience from having to evaluate between Chinese , US and Turkish systems along with working with them on design. The Latter two are incredibly close in quality of build and exact to performance whilst the Chinese take a while to get there.

your not to keen on Chinese tech are you?

anyway i think turkish radars are the one to go for, chances are that if a deal goes through it will come will some tot agreement whilst the us equipment will come with strings. the europeans will come with no strings but it comes at a price.

china will get the contract as they provide the best incentive to pakistan that is unrivalled

 

[khanasifm]

Check out these 2 are now also part of air def env.
YLC-6s
YLC-6 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-olZNrlLaA...CETC's+YLC-6++low-level+air-defence+radar.jpg



and YLC-2 radar
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AJmxAar3u...2A+long-range+airspace+surveillance+radar.jpg

http://www.***************/pictures/data/3291/medium/BOARD-8.jpg

 

[Quwa]

I suspect PAF is on the look out for Turkish radars and potentially even SHORAD missiles (e.g Hisar). I recall a Turkish defence industry official saying that when it comes to Pakistan, the Turkish industry is generally willing to derive a solution from the ground up. In other words, with Turkey we'd have a shot at getting end products that precisely meet our needs.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Check out these 2 are now also part of air def env.
YLC-6s
YLC-6 Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-olZNrlLaAJg/U5Ir-ZGPxII/AAAAAAAAHQU/cVI5XSsowMs/s1600/CETC's YLC-6 low-level air-defence radar.jpg



and YLC-2 radar
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AJmxAar3unc/U5IgeT6_p4I/AAAAAAAAHNA/mkVV4MrnWbg/s1600/CETC's YLC-2A long-range airspace surveillance radar.jpg

http://www.***************/pictures/data/3291/medium/BOARD-8.jpg

Both of these systems are real dogs on maintenance. PAF has looked at various Chinese systems for the new low level ADGE but none of them are upto PAR. This time I think they may look elsewhere.

I suspect PAF is on the look out for Turkish radars and potentially even SHORAD missiles (e.g Hisar). I recall a Turkish defence industry official saying that when it comes to Pakistan, the Turkish industry is generally willing to derive a solution from the ground up. In other words, with Turkey we'd have a shot at getting end products that precisely meet our needs.

No Turkish radar meets the low level radar requirement.

It has to be a medium range system, and not a fire control system. There arenas many options in this arena.

 

[Quwa]

Both of these systems are real dogs on maintenance. PAF has looked at various Chinese systems for the new low level ADGE but none of them are upto PAR. This time I think they may look elsewhere.


No Turkish radar meets the low level radar requirement.

It has to be a medium range system, and not a fire control system. There arenas many options in this arena.

Interesting, did the PAF evaluate the Kalkan? What was said about it?

Radar Systems | Capabilities | ASELSAN

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Interesting, did the PAF evaluate the Kalkan? What was said about it?

Radar Systems | Capabilities | ASELSAN

Evaluation is done after a system comes to some proximity to the ASR.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

It is rumoured within the military circles that Pakistan has started to evaluate Thales Ground Master series (most likely a Ground Master 200) system as a potential system to replace MPDR fleet.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/GM200 Datasheet.pdf

Meanwhile, efforts are underway to buy support kits from Siemens (EADS, Cassidian, now Airbus DS) to upgrade part of MPDR fleet as a stop gap measure. This shows that Pakistani decision makers are still not clear on their direction for low level sensor capability, after successful induction and integration of airborne radars.

The MPDR, German Doppler Radar, is largely obsolete, and is the biggest achilles heel in the Pakistani ADGE. The current MPDR fleet can easily be jammed, spoofed, and made useless, and can even be used to exploit the recently developed indigenous C2 system by the Air Force. Efforts to upgrade MPDR from various sources have not been successful, and going for a partial and upgrade solution from Siemens seems to be a desperate or confused (or worse, vested interests) attempt by the decision makers.

Paksitani AF may soon have to decide their CONOPS clearly on what they they wish to do with their low level ADGE, rather than trying to do everything may end up with a serious compromise in the low level regime.

 

[Quwa]

It is rumoured within the military circles that Pakistan has started to evaluate Thales Ground Master series (most likely a Ground Master 200) system as a potential system to replace MPDR fleet.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/GM200 Datasheet.pdf

Meanwhile, efforts are underway to buy support kits from Siemens (EADS, Cassidian, now Airbus DS) to upgrade part of MPDR fleet as a stop gap measure. This shows that Pakistani decision makers are still not clear on their direction for low level sensor capability, after successful induction and integration of airborne radars.

The MPDR, German Doppler Radar, is largely obsolete, and is the biggest achilles heel in the Pakistani ADGE. The current MPDR fleet can easily be jammed, spoofed, and made useless, and can even be used to exploit the recently developed indigenous C2 system by the Air Force. Efforts to upgrade MPDR from various sources have not been successful, and going for a partial and upgrade solution from Siemens seems to be a desperate or confused (or worse, vested interests) attempt by the decision makers.

Paksitani AF may soon have to decide their CONOPS clearly on what they they wish to do with their low level ADGE, rather than trying to do everything may end up with a serious compromise in the low level regime.

Could the issue be a lack of financially accessible options? Wouldn't it be prudent to just take down a relatively high cost in exchange for getting a system that can serve properly for decades?