PAC upgrading Super Mushshak aircraft for counter-insurgency operations

[Thəorətic Muslim]

TAI offered the Hurkus with co-production.

If TAI has the Hurkus why go with the S. Mushshak? Offsets/ relationship?

 

[hussain0216]

We have sold loads of these as trainers

There are countless scenarios where something like this with a light payload could be very useful to a range of countries


The super mushaks have been a export success and now they have a extra string to their bow which can be marketed smartly to low income countries where they can get a basic trainer with some basic ground attack capabilities

This maybe is not even meant for Pakistan

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If TAI has the Hurkus why go with the S. Mushshak? Offsets/ relationship?

Different categories of trainers. The Super Mushshak is a first-step trainer for screening candidates and providing basic flight training. The Hurkus is the next step, basically a T-37 Tweet replacement.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Why don't PAF get this for Counter insurgency

 

[Path-Finder]

TAI offered the Hurkus with co-production. It's powered by the PT6 which also powers the AW139 and Bell-412EP and for which PAC spent money raising an MRO facility.

If they wanted to push a COIN platform, they could have partnered with TAI when the Hurkus-C was drawn up and jointly sold that for $20 m a pop (still cheaper than the Super Tucano) - accruing even 25% of a contract's value would have returned $5 m per plane to PAC, which is the value of multiple Super Mushshak.

With Turkey's clout, they might have seen penetration in markets that are today buying IOMAX Archangels and Air Tractors - the cumulative life-cycle value of those markets is $1bn.

When I floated the idea of investing in the Hurkus-C to retired officers, I got a lecture on how slow moving planes are a liability, why everyone wants fast jets, etc, etc. ...and here we are today arming an even slower plane with less.

If the offer was made then it should have been taken. 2 squads could have made a big difference in COIN Ops due to low cost in comparison to a jet.

 

[araz]

Innovation is good, but it should still be done correctly. The Super Mushshak, while very cheap, is inherently very limited. There are roles it was simply not meant for, and going into a hot-zone with relatively few armaments - which are straining its maneuverability and agility - was not one of them.

I would have partnered with TAI for the Hurkus-C very early on (when the plane was just sketches) and asked for 40%+ of co-production and after-sale support, MRO and munitions contracts. Partner with Turkey and go to each of those markets, e.g. Nigeria, Kenya, etc, and offer a complete aircraft, support, weapons and training - with people experienced in COIN no less - for 10-20% less than the competition. Heck, we could even package Super Mushshaks as trainers to accompany the Hurkus-C.

Interesting thoughts and an illuminating discussion. If you read the article AVM Arshad Malik is on record saying we have enquiries from various countries for a COIN aircraft and this is the result of that requirement. We have already sold more than 100 platforms which have been integrated by at least 10 countries. The next question to ask is whether there is a need for a COIN aircraft to have 10 missiles. As missiles are becoming more accurate will you go after multiple missiles or accurately fire the 2 that you have on board plus some rockets and you really dont need to do more. The same principls as JFT with 7 hardpoints.
Hurkus C ia a good platform but the point still stands that for similar sized aircrafts with similar you have a mature and successful platform what does it tell your customers when you go for a second platform? So essentially we would have deprived ourselves of nearly 150 million $ in sales which we have made recently to Qatar Nigeria and Turkey. Secondly with Kamra working to full capacity where do you propose we build this new platform?.
I think this is a development which has been made in response to a demand and possibly will not be used by PA Iin that role.
A

 

[Silver Fox XN]

I fail to understand why we are always looking for expensive and complicated stuff. This Mod has certain advantages like Low Cost - Any other option like Hurkus will require resources and especially manpower. Why to invest in such venture when you have K-8s and T-37s.

Then those talking about the firepower, Pakistan's main threat is now terrorism not India. And we have already cleared the area so now for next 5-10 years we will be going after hidden elements or IBOs. So we dont need to invest in such heavy payload capacity.

Then obviously the maintenance aspect of this simple piston engine aircraft is much more simpler then those turboprop jets like Hurkus and A-29s.

Those talking UAV, well they must know that UAVs have still limitations and they cant be rapidly deployed like manned aircraft. So this Mushak can be an excellent armed scout for CPEC

 

[Inception-06]

I fail to understand why we are always looking for expensive and complicated stuff. This Mod has certain advantages like Low Cost - Any other option like Hurkus will require resources and especially manpower. Why to invest in such venture when you have K-8s and T-37s.

Then those talking about the firepower, Pakistan's main threat is now terrorism not India. And we have already cleared the area so now for next 5-10 years we will be going after hidden elements or IBOs. So we dont need to invest in such heavy payload capacity.

Then obviously the maintenance aspect of this simple piston engine aircraft is much more simpler then those turboprop jets like Hurkus and A-29s.

Those talking UAV, well they must know that UAVs have still limitations and they cant be rapidly deployed like manned aircraft. So this Mushak can be an excellent armed scout for CPEC

I agree, excellent arguments!

 

[Windjammer]

^^^^^
Not to mention the SM can be deployed at any forward position with a short grass landing strip.
@Silver Fox XN

You are very quite these days, need more follow up to those images/videos.

 

[cabatli_53]

TAI COIN team of Turkey

There is a tendency of countries to order light attack, reconnaissance COIN turboprop aircraft. Hurkus-C with powerful propulsion, heavy payload capacity (1500kg), less operation costs per take-off, less time to be ready for operation and higher speed/high altitude operation capability offer some superior capabilities to costumers so Turkish Army placed an order to acquire 12+12 Hurkus-C CION aircraft.

 

[JamD]

I am quite certain this "Armed Super Mushak" will not see any action and will be forgotten soon, like many other such "experiments".

 

[JK!]

Super Mushak is good in observation role for army. So arming them allows them to do something if they observe miscreants straightaway as opposed to calling in fast air.

In terms of operational costs this is a no brainer.

In Vietnam America had many fast air assets like the F4 Phantom but the most reliable fixed wing asset they had was older slower prop driven skyraider aircraft for CAS.

In COIN terms slow is good.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Interesting thoughts and an illuminating discussion. If you read the article AVM Arshad Malik is on record saying we have enquiries from various countries for a COIN aircraft and this is the result of that requirement. We have already sold more than 100 platforms which have been integrated by at least 10 countries. The next question to ask is whether there is a need for a COIN aircraft to have 10 missiles. As missiles are becoming more accurate will you go after multiple missiles or accurately fire the 2 that you have on board plus some rockets and you really dont need to do more. The same principls as JFT with 7 hardpoints.
Hurkus C ia a good platform but the point still stands that for similar sized aircrafts with similar you have a mature and successful platform what does it tell your customers when you go for a second platform? So essentially we would have deprived ourselves of nearly 150 million $ in sales which we have made recently to Qatar Nigeria and Turkey. Secondly with Kamra working to full capacity where do you propose we build this new platform?.
I think this is a development which has been made in response to a demand and possibly will not be used by PA Iin that role.
A

AM Arshad Malik said the ISR element was requested by customers (which is fine since EO/IR pods are light), but the COIN stuff is a PAC study.

Second, the Super Mushshak and Hurkus are different categories of trainer - the Super Mushshak is a screening trainer, while the Hurkus is meant as a replacement for basic jet trainers such as the T-37. In fact, you'll notice that recent Super Mushshak buyers - e.g. Qatar, Turkey and Nigeria - have also bought the PC-21, KT-1 and Super Tucano, respectively. Turkey itself is developing the Hurkus.

Should the PAF buy the Hurkus, it would be for replacing the T-37. For each of those Super Mushshak buyers, it would be a completely normal decision, one in line with most air forces. As for the Hurkus-C, it would be viewed as a COIN platform that's completely on-par with the competition, and it might even sway Nigeria away from the Super Tucano (which it is aggressively seeking today).

Third, it's not an issue of the Super Mushshak being comparatively smaller or lighter than the Hurkus-C, it is just inherently too limited for the role. These munitions add lots of relative weight which will greatly reduce the agility and maneuverability of this plane - i.e., no one is going to send this into a hostile environment over a drone, much less a proper COIN platform like the Hurkus-C. In fact, the Burraq drone has about as much payload with its own EO/IR pod as the Super Mushshak.

I am quite certain this "Armed Super Mushak" will not see any action and will be forgotten soon, like many other such "experiments".

I take it as a possible step in that someone at PAC is finally aware of the turboprop COIN market. Yes, this isn't an optimal solution, but it might be a bridge for them to finally see the Hurkus-C, Super Tucano and/or Archangel in action. Once that happens, they'll forget about arming the Super Mushshak.

 

[Pakistani E]

Super Mushak is good in observation role for army. So arming them allows them to do something if they observe miscreants straightaway as opposed to calling in fast air.

In terms of operational costs this is a no brainer.

In Vietnam America had many fast air assets like the F4 Phantom but the most reliable fixed wing asset they had was older slower prop driven skyraider aircraft for CAS.

In COIN terms slow is good.

British Army...?

 

[CHI RULES]

The Pilots should wear than bulletproof Jackets or need to add on armour, an easy target for 12.7mm AA DUSHK.

Sir can the mentioned gun target an aircraft at 20000+ft.