Ouran and Siyer was the Elective in Turkish Schools

[forummurat]

Good, perhaps my lecture worked after all this is the first time you appear to be a sane person rather than a bigoted hot-head. Always try to stay as logical as possible my friend. Flaming wont get you nowhere...

I LIKE YOU MAN

 

[killerx]

its a good step paksitan must follow turkey

 

[Zulkarneyn]

It simply isn't government's job to teach people religion. And if government decides to do it, it has to give teachings of all religions equally. Untill today there was information about other religions in books(a page or two) but at least there was.

Erdogan says he is defending secularism when he is cornered but the fact is he only wants his religion to dominate and rule the country. I was very happy when he told muslim brothers in Egypt to embrace a secular approach. I thought something was changed about him but now im totally disappointed.

Still they cant be as bigoted as muslim brothers and other political parties in islamic countries as such but Turkey deserves better adminstration.

Back to topic:
I regret my decision when choosing my high school branch at the age of 15. It is horrible to force a child in age of 10 to make a decision this serious. Certainly religious families will send their childeren to imam hatip schools and they wont have any initiative. I wonder what this will accomplish.

In Denmark and every single other EU country there is Christianity lectures in primary school to 10th grade. So what is up with you guys and opposition to Islam lectures when 99% of the populace is Muslim? Let me tell you one thing buddy, the more you repress Islam the stronger it will return, there is simply a boomerang effect. Secularism has failed in Turkey it is time we move on.

 

[Selim I]

It simply isn't government's job to teach people religion. And if government decides to do it, it has to give teachings of all religions equally. Untill today there was information about other religions in books(a page or two) but at least there was.

Erdogan says he is defending secularism when he is cornered but the fact is he only wants his religion to dominate and rule the country. I was very happy when he told muslim brothers in Egypt to embrace a secular approach. I thought something was changed about him but now im totally disappointed.

Still they cant be as bigoted as muslim brothers and other political parties in islamic countries as such but Turkey deserves better adminstration.

Back to topic:
I regret my decision when choosing my high school branch at the age of 15. It is horrible to force a child in age of 10 to make a decision this serious. Certainly religious families will send their childeren to imam hatip schools and they wont have any initiative. I wonder what this will accomplish.

The government of Turkey whose 99% of its inhabitants are Muslims are going to give all the other religions same opportunity?
It wouldn't harm me if they did so, but I doubt they will form Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism classes or Christian classes since people are Muslim, and want to learn about Islam, Qur'an and Muhammad (pbuh).

It is a progression to start with the significant ones at first, maybe other religions will follow after this first step. Everything happens step by step. No school can afford to teach 20 different religion, since there are not sufficent teachers to teach every respective religion. But starting with what 99% wants is not a bad idea in my head, later you can focus on the 0.1% and 0.3% minorities (in total 1%).

 

[Musalman]

its a good step paksitan must follow turkey

we already have Quran and Hadith in our education system

 

[Deno]

I don't like extreme or unconscious Mod edit offensive content removed!
My wish that dont seem like a sunni Turk in this forum..!!

History Lesson 1

Shah Ismail was first the Shah of Azerbaijan and than conqured Iran and became the Shah of Iran

Shah Ismail was Turk... War between Safavids and Ottomans was a war to controll Azerbaijan and Iraq but they used Shia and Sunni sects as a tool for that war

You are a sectarian extremist... I am not even muslim and you try to insult me by calling '' Alevi '' which I find both funny pathetic... Being Alavi is not a insult but to bigot minded people like you it is apperantly...

The government of Turkey whose 99% of its inhabitants are Muslims are going to give all the other religions same opportunity?
It wouldn't harm me if they did so, but I doubt they will form Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism classes or Christian classes since people are Muslim, and want to learn about Islam, Qur'an and Muhammad (pbuh).

It is a progression to start with the significant ones at first, maybe other religions will follow after this first step. Everything happens step by step. No school can afford to teach 20 different religion, since there are not sufficent teachers to teach every respective religion. But starting with what 99% wants is not a bad idea in my head, later you can focus on the 0.1% and 0.3% minorities (in total 1%).

In my high school more than haf of the students were atheist and in my university more than half of the students are atheists... People call themselves muslm because they don't want to be seen as different...

Atleast %5-6 of the population is Atheist... These numbers came from ID cards which classify every Turk as muslim unless it is said otherwise by parents or changed by request... I am Atheist but even I didn't care enough to change what my ID card says... I always thought it was not important but I guess it is because people get the wrong impression because of our lack of interest in others religion...

 

[Deno]

What I observed when I read this thread was your negative position to the call of the parliament regarding elective subjects as Qur'an and "Siyer" courses, because you believe there is something going on under the table, and that AKP is making $20 bn (totally absurd amount of money) profit out of it. There are certain things which you have to elaborate when you make such a statement.

When you were being asked to elaborate, your answer was continiously "do you think I am a free enclypedia?". If I made a falsy statement without explaining what it was based on and telling people who asked me to elaborate myself, the dumbest answer I could give would be "do you think I am a free enclypedia?". Due to three reasons:

#1: It shows you don't know what you are talking about
#2: It is clear you have no solid proof of what you are talking about (probably some propoganda or weak conspiracy theory).
#3: You try to avoid the answer with cheap tricks (changing subject or refraining to elaborating yourself).

This is actually called Fitnah. Right now you made a very big Fitnah about the government, trying to make a vast profit out of this new agreement in the parliament.

And to give you an idea of what $20 bn is, I'll give you some example:
- It equals 100 Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II (Unit cost: F-35A: US$197 million (weapons system flyaway cost, 2012))

Or:

- 1000 General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon (Unit cost: F-16C/D: US$18.8 million (1998 dollars))


Now tell me a reason not to reject the "facts" you were stating. (Very laughable "facts", even a primary school student would see the difference between facts and hypothesis or weak conspiracy theory)

Really did you not read my posts... I explain to him what AKP did... You can read that post too...

But I am very suspicious about him not answering that post with counter argument rather than calling me un-religious and other BSs...

 

[Selim I]

History Lesson 1

Shah Ismail was first the Shah of Azerbaijan and than conqured Iran and became the Shah of Iran

Shah Ismail was Turk... War between Safavids and Ottomans was a war to controll Azerbaijan and Iraq but they used Shia and Sunni sects as a tool for that war

You are a sectarian extremist... I am not even muslim and you try to insult me by calling '' Alevi '' which I find both funny pathetic... Being Alavi is not a insult but to bigot minded people like you it is apperantly...



In my high school more than haf of the students were atheist and in my university more than half of the students are atheists... People call themselves muslm because they don't want to be seen as different...

Atleast %5-6 of the population is Atheist... These numbers came from ID cards which classify every Turk as muslim unless it is said otherwise by parents or changed by request... I am Atheist but even I didn't care enough to change what my ID card says... I always thought it was not important but I guess it is because people get the wrong impression because of our lack of interest in others religion...

So here is my question. Is Atheism a religion?
I could answer this question myself.

Even if we accepted your thoughts about the number of Muslims in Turkey. Let's say 92%, don't you think those 92% should have the right to learn their religion in schools?

Even in the western world (as Zulkarneyn explained) it is obligatory to be tought Christianity, it isn't even elective course, obligatory as Math, Danish and English.

But when you even attempt to make it elective course in Turkey, something happens in the heads of none-Muslim people and kemalists (mostly). Just think a little rational, and you will easily understand that this is very natural world wide, and has nothing to do with extremism.

 

[Deno]

Alevis have wounds. it has not started with ismail of Safavids. It dates back to 13th century.

First rebellion was Babai rebellion which happened in 1240's Before Mongol invasion. Shortly it was a revolt about nomad Turkmens against settled Seljuk hierarchy.

Since then it happened so many times, i lost the count. Hurufis during Mehmed the Conqueror era, then Shah kulu rebellion in 1511. Then Chaldiran in 1514. Kurds took over Akkoyunlu lands and forced Turkmens out.

Again in 17th century jelali revolts occured, growing stronger.

During Turkish Republic era, marash, chorum, sivas events happened. For Sivas, because i studied it, it was Aziz Nesin's fault.

If not we understand eachother, we may create another separatist movement, and we start again from Babai rebellions of 21 century.

History lesson 2

Alevi's as we Turks call them are Turks who accepted Islam but still kept some of the paganic rituals in their religion as we can see from the Cem Houses, snging and dancing while praying * old Turkic tradition *

Ottoman's were worried about them not because of religion but because as nomadic people it was hard to controll what they would do. Thats why Ottomans always riduculed and humuliated * You can see that from the poems about how barbaric and filty the nomadic Turkmens are * nomadic Turkmens rather be Alavi, Shia or Sunni. And That is the reason why the rebellins happened and that is the reason why nomadic Turks of that time sided with Ismail because of his friendly approch towards nomadic Turkic tribes...

Kurds were always there... They didn't took over anything nor do they ruled any land in their entire history... After Akkoyunlu * which were Sunni Turks * defeat against Ottomans in times of Beyazid the grand son of Uzun Hassan, Ahmed Bey whom was also the grand son Mehmed the II was sent with Ottoman army and conqured greater Azerbaijan and Iraq as we call it today.

And blaming Sivas massacere to Aziz Nesin is one of the most ridiculus things I have ever heard in my life... It was nothing more than savagery of uneducated and ignorance local people of Sivas... I may not like Aziz Nesin but blaming him for others ignorance and savegery is unacceptable.

So here is my question. Is Atheism a religion?

No it isn't... I just said that to correct your wrong information.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

Deno, read İdris'i bitlisi and his 10.000 men.

Aziz nesin was a provocateur, read his speeches as well and satan ayet translation thing.

 

[Deno]

Deno, read İdris'i bitlisi and his 10.000 men.

Aziz nesin was a provocateur, read his speeches as well and satan ayet translation thing.

I don't like Aziz Nesin, believe me... But whatever he maybe or whatever he may say does not justify the Massacere that has been done to brightess of our nation because of the lack of tolerance of local people

 

[Armstrong]

its a good step paksitan must follow turkey

Pakistan already does that ! So we don't really need to follow because the dilemma we face is different - We teach Islam but not the ethics, the civics and the message of unity it teaches ! A country like Pakistan, where the overwhelming majority, very strongly identifies with Islam and wants it to be a part of its polity is also the country where most Pakistanis are at the mercy of religious clerics who don't know the first thing about Arabic literature, Philosophy, History and countless other wordily academic disciplines, and yet have the temerity of preaching Islam and propagating how the Quran provides a Complete Code of Conduct for a believer.

 

[Deno]

Pakistan already does that ! So we don't really need to follow because the dilemma we face is different - We teach Islam but not the ethics, the civics and the message of unity it teaches ! A country like Pakistan, where the overwhelming majority, very strongly identifies with Islam and wants it to be a part of its polity is also the country where most Pakistanis are at the mercy of religious clerics who don't know the first thing about Arabic literature, Philosophy, History and countless other wordily academic disciplines, and yet have the temerity of preaching Islam and propagating how the Quran provides a Complete Code of Conduct for a believer.

Turkey already teachs Islam in schools under '' Religious Culture and Moral Knowledge '' lessons. This law will only change the name of the lessons, the main reason of the law is the lift the tenders that choose the publisher of school books... Everyone is either happy that this law passed because media announced it as Quran will be tought at schools or angry at goverment for meddling with religious bussiness... but actually main reason is different.

Main reason of this law was to stop the tenders and give the full controll of choosing the company to goverment...

 

[Selim I]

Turkey already teachs Islam in schools under '' Religious Culture and Moral Knowledge '' lessons. This law will only change the name of the lessons, the main reason of the law is the lift the tenders that choose the publisher of school books... Everyone is either happy that this law passed because media announced it as Quran will be tought at schools or angry at goverment for meddling with religious bussiness... but actually main reason is different.

Main reason of this law was to stop the tenders and give the full controll of choosing the company to goverment...

I don't know where you read all those theories with "main reasons" of things. Whenever the media shows things in favor of AK-Party, anti-Islamists and kemalists are fabricating weak conpiracy theories and believes in weak theories instead of accepting the actual reason. Because fanatism makes a barrier between the two groups, even if they do a right thing which is recognized world wide, they will believe the opposite.
In Turkey there is fanatism in vast numbers. Therefore they have to disagree in simply everything what their "rivals" (as CHP is AK-Party's rival today) is suggesting. I call it blind-dumbness.

I am sorry to hear that you can't change your religion to "Atheism" in your passport and ID card's. I also think eveyone should know who is what, instead of walking around with fake crucial information.

 

[Deno]

I don't know where you read all those theories with "main reasons" of things. Whenever the media shows things in favor of AK-Party, anti-Islamists and kemalists are fabricating weak conpiracy theories and believes in weak theories instead of accepting the actual reason. Because fanatism makes a barrier between the two groups, even if they do a right thing which is recognized world wide, they will believe the opposite.
In Turkey there is fanatism in vast numbers. Therefore they have to disagree in simply everything what their "rivals" (as CHP is AK-Party's rival today) is suggesting. I call it blind-dumbness.

I am sorry to hear that you can't change your religion to "Atheism" in your passport and ID card's. I also think eveyone should know who is what, instead of walking around with fake crucial information.

You just accuse me of fanatism because I said something that is written in this article? Are you serious?

I can change it to blank but I always thought it was not important but recent numbers as %99 of Turkish citizens are muslim is a misinformation... * Ateism is not a religion *

Knowing others religious preferences means nothing to me... Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Atheist... I don't care who people worship...