Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA

[Yeti]

It is correct that in war like situation you would use your assets and the Rafale like the Mirages before it will be a factor for Pakistan to counter. The lower RCS of the plane combined with the AESA all linked up with the Indian AWACS is the type of net-centric future warfare the IA is moving towards.

How Pakistan can counter it: investing in more SAM's/cruise missiles to hit runways etc/better BVR missiles and pilot training is what my initial steps would be.

Also if the UAE does buy the Rafale than Pakistan could adopt air exercises with them to understand the plane and its weakness.

 

[joekrish]

Until 1980's PAF had the quality advantage over IAF's quantity. In the 2000's the qualitative advantage shifted towards IAF with induction of Su-30MKI's, whereas PAF degraded both in quality and quantity. The best option for PAF is to improve on the quantitative aspect by inducting more low cost, low performance jets like JF-17's and medium cost, medium performance Jets like J-10 to counter IAF's qualitative advantage.

Agreed! So..... should Pakistan try and counter everything that India buys.

 

[newdelhinsa]

China can sell J-10B and JF-17 to Pakistan as cheap as it wants. That's not the question being asked here. The issue is some people think China can produce those planes at a super affordable price, which is not true. To provide Pakistan with the planes at that price, China would be taking a loss. While I have no doubt China will offer its best price to Pakistan, I don't think it will go as far as to pay out of its own pocket. As friendly as China is towards Pakistan, it can't fight Pakistan's battles.

Doesn't make any sense.

 

[gubbi]

How Pakistan can counter it: investing in more SAM's/cruise missiles to hit runways etc/better BVR missiles and pilot training is what my initial steps would be.

Thats a long way off. Recollect the role of Rafales in a recent conflict - Libya. Rafale aircraft flew the first strike missions, jamming Libyan radars and striking their SAM assets and armor. Within a matter of days, Libyan air-space was devoid of any threat to NATO aircraft!

And remember that it was SPECTRA suite that protected Rafale fighters, and not some dedicated SEAD platforms.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is correct that in war like situation you would use your assets and the Rafale like the Mirages before it will be a factor for Pakistan to counter. The lower RCS of the plane combined with the AESA all linked up with the Indian AWACS is the type of net-centric future warfare the IA is moving towards.

How Pakistan can counter it: investing in more SAM's/cruise missiles to hit runways etc/better BVR missiles and pilot training is what my initial steps would be.

Also if the UAE does buy the Rafale than Pakistan could adopt air exercises with them to understand the plane and its weakness.

Something to remember here is that 'net-centricity' works to the advantage of both sides, if both sides are pursuing it. Pakistan's investments in the Swedish and Chinese AEW&C's, along with the work done and being done on linking all of its air assets to a C4 system, would largely negate the 'radar range advantage' that larger Indian fighters possess, since 'detection of an Indian air threat and relaying that information to PAF fighter jets' would be done initially through the AEW&C's - the same is true on the Indian side - Indian AWACs would detect the PAF long before the MMRCA or Sukhois would.

And when one side or the other has enemy AC detection, a whole range of factors, systems and processes come into play, both local to the fighter jets as well as the supporting systems. Fighter based ECM, AWACs based ECM, missile range and performance, ground based countermeasures etc. etc. etc.

So even with a fleet comprised mainly of the JF-17, equipped with advanced SRAAMs, MRAAMs and LRAAM's and ECCM suites, the MMRCA+Sukhoi Indian threat is not the 'END ALL HUGE ADVANTAGE' that some are trying to paint it as, from both sides of the border.

 

[Yeti]

Thats a long way off. Recollect the role of Rafales in a recent conflict - Libya. Rafale aircraft flew the first strike missions, jamming Libyan radars and striking their SAM assets and armor. Within a matter of days, Libyan air-space was devoid of any threat to NATO aircraft!

And remember that it was SPECTRA suite that protected Rafale fighters, and not some dedicated SEAD platforms.

I feel investing in more SAM's would be a good approach for Pakistan to undertake but im not sure what other options are there?

We have one of the best AWACS systems also in the world and that linked up with our Rafale in the future will be very hard for Pakistan to match with JF17 in my book.

 

[Mani2020]

PAF tested the EF in 2005, the Rafale was also checked out at some point, however both were rejected as not the best options.

Sir jee no doubt that PAF tested the Rafale and along with it PAF also tested gripen and EF-2000 but the rejection of these aircrafts by PAF was not because they were short of capabilities or they have some glitches in their performance but rather it was more of a political interest , we had enough money at that time,the bags were full and the most deals which are shinning now a days were signed in that era but the musharraf govt was american centric.... when the trials were going on the americans played a card that worked for them and we were trapped again.... US offered us with block 52 and as our forces are obsessed with f-16 like it is the only aircraft that will remain till the last day of the world as the best fighter plus the reason that we already had f-16s (which by the way was less hindrance for me and more of an excuse) we went for it...and US trapped us again ...we should rather have split the deals like india did ... for mlu and other equipment we may have gone for USA but for aircrafts if we have diverted to french or britain it would have opened new doors for us

bt we failed ....i was once told that the Rafale was most dearest to PAF pilots .... Paf when knew they are not getting their hands on to Rafale or other bidders they tilted towards china for j-10 whose sweet spot was its price....ACM clearly mentioned that j-10 lagged the capabilities required by the PAF. so it was more cost-oriented decision...later on there were attempts for j-10 to make it better to suit PAF

 

[Edevelop]

I feel investing in more SAM's would be a good approach for Pakistan to undertake but im not sure what other options are there?

We have one of the best AWACS systems also in the world and that linked up with our Rafale in the future will be very hard for Pakistan to match with JF17 in my book.

I still don't think this is the era of look and shoot from distance. India and Pakistan are next door, you would have to face dog fight with us instead. Are Rafales capable of doing that? IMO, its still the pilot factor....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I feel investing in more SAM's would be a good approach for Pakistan to undertake but im not sure what other options are there?

We have one of the best AWACS systems also in the world and that linked up with our Rafale in the future will be very hard for Pakistan to match with JF17 in my book.

A high altitude SAM system along with the continued investment in and development of the JF-17, C4 system, AEW&C assets and other ground based detection systems is the path Pakistan is currently on and should continue to pursue.

 

[ziaulislam]

its time people should undertand how PAF works
it will basically have JF-17 and J-10/F-16 mix..
each of them will have a definite chance of success against any indian fourth gen aircraft
only real difference will be that thunder will most likely face its enemy in its own territory and f-16/j-10 in opposition territory

the real issue PAF should be thinking is the fifth gen aircraft and i am pretty sure it is..

when thunder was going its development PAF knew the threats of Su 30 and MRCA, in fact i am pretty sure PAF knew that shortlist aircrafts as a guess.

lastly, thunder cost doesn't mean its a super inferior aircraft, it simply mean that its a chinese-pakistan indigenous one with low R&D due to browing of techn from J-10

In nutshell thunder in a cohert war can easily face any indian fourth gen jet..it can pick up and use BVRs at its will with excellent avionics and ECM capabilites...

to me MRCA has from begining a waste of indian resources when they could have used the LCA. isnt it surpriser that after Arabs its biggest militery deals?

 

[Yeti]

Something to remember here is that 'net-centricity' works to the advantage of both sides, if both sides are pursuing it. Pakistan's investments in the Swedish and Chinese AEW&C's, along with the work done and being done on linking all of its air assets to a C4 system, would largely negate the 'radar range advantage' that larger Indian fighters possess, since 'detection of an Indian air threat and relaying that information to PAF fighter jets' would be done initially through the AEW&C's - the same is true on the Indian side - Indian AWACs would detect the PAF long before the MMRCA or Sukhois would.

And when one side or the other has enemy AC detection, a whole range of factors, systems and processes come into play, both local to the fighter jets as well as the supporting systems. Fighter based ECM, AWACs based ECM, missile range and performance, ground based countermeasures etc. etc. etc.

So even with a fleet comprised mainly of the JF-17, equipped with advanced SRAAMs, MRAAMs and LRAAM's and ECCM suites, the MMRCA+Sukhoi Indian threat is not the 'END ALL HUGE ADVANTAGE' that some are trying to paint it as, from both sides of the border.

Totally agree, the purchase of Pakistan's Ereye system is a big game changer as one must remember that past conflicts were not fought with such net-centric warfare as it would be today.

The SD-10 BVR missile for the Thunder is a good system and will pose a threat to the IAF this if it was combined with more SAM sites placed in a strategic fashion would make penetrating Pakitan's airspace that much harder.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

If we look at the deal , MRCA well Pakistan has already secured its solution

How many Fighters is India recieving 100

Well folks , Pakistan has already recieved 18 F16 C/D and now option 18 F16 Block C/D Total 36 Fighters
Plus 36 J10B fighters will be added to Pakistani Forces

So in Total that is 72 brand new planes by 2015 (Block C/D plus J10B)

So there is a difference of 30 new jets that India got , well that difference can be blanced by with either retaining few planes form 300 planes Pakistan airforces has (Mirage , Chinese )

Not to forget that we are also getting our JF17 Thunders 300 fighters

Not to forget that JF17 thunder Block 2 , and Block 3 might provide something far more superior


From my prespective :
The only major difference that has emerged in recent years has been
a) Nuclear Submarine Lease
b) Posiden Anti Ship/Submarine planes

30 Odd Rafale plane difference can be easily cancelled by addition of more J10B fighters if needed

I look forward to 6 Submarine addition in Pakistan Navy , our Airforce has already setup a good system

 

[Edevelop]

A high altitude SAM system along with the continued investment in and development of the JF-17, C4 system, AEW&C assets and other ground based detection systems is the path Pakistan is currently on and should continue to pursue.

We are pretty good with Missiles.
We started off with Balastics, i.e Shaheen 1, Ghazanavi, Abdali
... then to light version of Surface to Air, i.e Anza 1
... then to cruise missiles i.e Babur, Ra'ad
If we did all this indigenously, then we should have no problem, making high altitude SAMS indigenously as well. I guess time will tell...

 

[gubbi]

A high altitude SAM system along with the continued investment in and development of the JF-17, C4 system, AEW&C assets and other ground based detection systems is the path Pakistan is currently on and should continue to pursue.

How would SPECTRA suite cope with those threats?

Heres whats known about SPECTRA. From Strategypage forum:

SPECTRA = Système de Protection et d'Evitement des Conduites de Tir du Rafale ? Self Protection Equipment Countering Threats of Rafale Aircraft

Heart of the SPECTRA is the GIC computer (Gestion de l'Interface et Compatibilité) comprising 3 processors.

The SPECTRA components include:

DBEM (Détection et Brouillage Electromagnétique) - RWR/ECM
- programmable threat libaries
- ELINT/SIGINT functions
- Fully fused with other on- & offboard sensor data

RWR/ESM
- digital receivers
- 3 antennas with 120° azimuth coverage each located on the intakes and fin tip pod, plus additional antennas on the wing tips
- Interferometry (azimuth & elevation) with stated <1 deg bearing accuracy
- 2-40 GHz frequency coverage (some sources suggest lower end coverage ~200 MHz)
- geolocation of emitters
- ~250 km detection range (dependent on the emitter)
- Target coordination generation for weapons employment

DECM
- 3 AESA antennas on the fin root and canard roots
- DRFM based
- pencil thin jamming beams
- offensive, defensive and stealthy modes

DDM (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) - MLD
- 2 mid-wave IIR sensors on the fin tip pod sides (360 deg azimuth coverage)

DAL (Detecteur d?Alerte Laser) - LWR
- 3 sensors on the front fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod

Decoy dispensers
- 4 vertical firing flare/decoy dispensers on the top of the fuselage near the wing trailing edges and 2 chaff dispensers on the rear fuselage sides behind the wings

 

[Yeti]

I still don't think this is the era of look and shoot from distance. India and Pakistan are next door, you would have to face dog fight with us instead. Are Rafales capable of doing that? IMO, its still the pilot factor....

When i saw the demo of the Rafale at MAKS 2011 it really did look like a extremely maneuverable jet but i agree pilot skills still comes into play.