Opinion: Musharraf could've been a caliph but chose to be a jackal.

[araz]

I think Dr Israr Ahmed disagreed with his policies openly in a conference on this issue and perhaps that's why Dr Israr had to face some tough time in Pakistan. Banned in Pakistan and he had to go to peace tv for his talks.
If we look at the history of muslims we will find that vast majority of the scholars used to give fatwas as per the wishes of the king. Very few spoke against the rulers. Those who spoke against the rulers were tortured or lured with money by the ruling kings/ caliphs of their time. Almost all of the 4 imams of ehle sunnah had to face extreme torture from the rulers of their time but they stood their ground. In our time Dr Zakir has this credit for standing against the oppression. He made "hijrah" and rejected the material benefits he was offered by the BJP government to change his views in favor of the Indian government but he refused to bend. But such people are extremely rare breed. Quaid e azam was one such example among the leaders.

I heard Dr Israr's arguments as I follow him and have learnt the meaning of the Quran listening to him. What he said was to not vive bases to the US but to side up with them in the form of providing transit and port facilities. In short give minimal support to prevent sanctions and aggression.
A

 

[Signalian]

Musharraf was a liberal guy, he wasn't religious.

 

[araz]

dr israr talked shit and was condemned for his crap hence he found common ground with another moron who praises Yazid and justifies Alqaeda and Daesh.

I asked SheikhDr Haitham Al Haddad what one should do when you encounter an Aalim who talks about subjects which you do not agree with. He said "take whatever good he is passing out to you and ignore what you do not agree with as long as you know yourself to be right". I find this advice to be more logical than the more rigid one of maligning ulema. Dr Israr has revived the interest in the Quran of a whole generation including me and I have immense respect for him and listen to his tafseer to this day and wipl continie to do so to my dying day. As to his association with Peace TV Dr Zakir Naik bought 66,000 Rs worth of high quality recordings from his institution and asked his permission to play them on his channel so n9thing wrong there and he continued to preech in Lahore.
Lastly the mo ement to clean the image of Muawia RA WHO HAPPENS TO BE A SAHABI OF MY HADI SAW, was mostly a movement to counter the rise of Pro Shia sentiments post Iran revolution. If you actually listen to the theme of this counter arguments it bases itself on.
A. There is NO comparison between Ali RA and Muawia as he embrased Islam post Mecca conquest
B. We as muslims do not have the right to condemn anyone who is a Sahabi of Rasool Allah SAW as per his SAW commands. Anyone doing so is/worng. However actions can be debated like the appointment of his/son Yazid to the throne( this was the conversion of Khilafa to mulukiat). But they need to remain respectful of Muawia RA position as Sahani no/matter how low in the cadre.
I hope you understand the reasons for my post.
A

 

[LeGenD]

moderators are to moderate content not moderate logic of others.

Moderators 'might' comment on a topic with the intent to:

1. Educate;
2. Address misconceptions;
3. Prevent a discussion from derailing;
4. Moderate Flamebaiting/Propaganda/Extremist themes;
5. Enforce Forum Rules;

These interventions do not sit well with some members of-course.

Some are hell bent to push their supposedly nationalistic 'narrative' down the throat of others. Nevermind their own blatant hypocrisy while they do this.

Therefore.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

there is an English line that goes "Everyone I don't like is literally Hitler, literally Hitler, literally Hitler", in reference to people who call anyone they don't like fascist.
it seems there should be a similar poem for Ummah, "Everyone I don't like is literally Jewish, literally Hindu" or something similar. it doesn't matter how much of the population loved them as pious and good Muslims just a few days ago, as soon as they do something the population will discover they were secretly a Jewish Hindu all along since a few centuries. no Muslim has ever preached terrorism in Pakistan, only secretly Hindu cells.
No true Scotsman.

 

[El Sidd]

Moderators 'might' comment on a topic with the intent to:

1. Educate;
2. Address misconceptions;
3. Prevent a discussion from derailing;
4. Moderate Flamebaiting/Propaganda/Extremist themes;
5. Enforce Forum Rules;

These interventions do not sit well with some members of-course.

Some are hell bent to push their supposedly nationalistic 'narrative' down the throat of others. Nevermind their own blatant hypocrisy while they do this.

Therefore.

Problem arises when intent is subjected to judgement. Neither members nor moderators are here to judge, preempt or predict intentions.

By becoming a party to the debate, they leave little for imagination and embolden one side or the other intently.

 

[LeGenD]

Problem arises when intent is subjected to judgement. Neither members nor moderators are here to judge, preempt or predict intentions.

By becoming a party to the debate, they leave little for imagination and embolden one side or the other intently.

So you want Moderators to be 'silent sharpshooters'? There is a limit to tolerating blatant hypocrisy under the garb of Freedom of Expression.

You have had plenty of Freedom of Expression on PDF as well. How productive were you all along? I am not in the mood to entertain 'charade' today.

 

[Wood]

Musharraf's first objective was to keep Pakistan relatively safe and economically solvent. He did the best he could given the cards dealt to him at that time. Thanks to the Pakistani cooperation with US, the economy of Pakistan was able to benefit during the boom time of early 2000. If not for that, situation would be more worse than it is right now. He deftly managed the blossoming relationship with China while keeping satisfactory relationship with US.

Musharraf also laid the ground for Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan that has eventually become successful. In every way possible, he put Pakistan first

 

[VCheng]

HOWEVER, the only thing that could have been done better would have been to negotiate harder for more concessions. The US was time barred for its offensive and a combination of delay and counter arguments MIGHT HAVE resulted in a better financial package for Pakistan. EVEN this remains a premise as I have no clue on what was demanded and what was agreed and what was thrown out of the window.

Every country tries to get the most while offering the least. Some do it better than others, of course.

Having said that, Pakistan's course has certainly been checkered, and, as you say, arguably could have been done better, but, it must be admitted that it has certainly done enough to get through some very difficult times and choices. It is also true that Pakistan's dictators have always left it in a bigger mess than when they started, considering both the short and long term effects. Gen Musharraf is no exception to this personal observation.

Taliban won.

Yes, of course!

 

[Isotope]

If only he had held on and pushed for victory against India in the kargil war and then denying support to America in 2001. He could've had millions if not billions of soldiers to defend Islam and Pakistan against the crusade.

All he had to do was say that America has threatened war against Pakistan if Pakistan doesn't cooperate with them on Afghanistan. He should've said I have held my ground and put my trust in Allah, armed forces, and Muslims to repel the crusade and gain victory which Allah has promised to its believers.

But he became a jackal and that is how history is going to show him as. A corrupt, death fearing jackal who laid down with his pants down in front of America.

Wow, just wowwwwww !!!

America might or might not have carried on with it's threat. In case it did, imagine just one scenario where it parked one if it's Nimitz class supercarrier in international waters closest to Karachi coast, started flying 150 sorties per day, every day and for weeks and on, precisely targeting the targets USA has always wanted to attack and destroy. Then later, to add insult to the injury, it brings another one of it's ten supercarrier and doubles up the sorties to 300 per day. How long you think a tiny country like Pakistan, size of the state of Texas (where I also live ), economically bankrupt back in 2001, mostly relied on imported arms for its defense would have fought back against a sustained non-stop military onslaught by a super power with unlimited resources and supported by the whole international community.

It was a smart thing that Pakistan did not take a gamble and tried to act like Rambo. For west, Pakistan would have been a great sacrificial lamb to be presented to the world as an example. At the end of the day, giving Kashmir to your mortal enemy India on a silver platter after breaking Pakistan's ability to resist back militarily.

USA wanted vengeance and blood after 9/11. Bush wanted to avenge the lives that had been lost on his watch. He wanted to lift the crushed spirits of Americans who were unaccustomed to being attacked. He wanted to set an example as a deterrent to others.

Absurdity of your post is something.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Wow, just wowwwwww !!!

America might or might not have carried on with it's threat. In case it did, imagine just one scenario where it parked one if it's Nimitz class supercarrier in international waters closest to Karachi coast, started flying 150 sorties per day, every day and for weeks and on, precisely targeting the targets USA has always wanted to attack. How long you think a small country like Pakistan, size of the state of Texas, economically bankrupt back in 2001, mostly relied on imported arms for its defense would have fought back against a sustained non-stop military onslaught by a super power with unlimited resources and supported by the whole international community.

It was a smart thing that Pakistan did not take a gamble and tried to act like Rambo. For west, Pakistan would have been a great sacrificial lamb to be presented to the world as an example. At the end of the day, giving Kashmir to your mortal enemy India on a silver platter after breaking Pakistan's ability to resist back militarily.

USA wanted vengeance and blood after 9/11. Bush wanted to avenge the lives that had been lost on his watch. He wanted to lift the crushed spirits of Americans who were unaccustomed to being attacked. He wanted to set an example as a deterrent to others.

Absurdity of your post is something.

POTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.............This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..............Excellent post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......................the OP is talking as if Pakistan is some sort hyper power.............................................

Those of us who are old enough to remember, know how powerful america was in 2001 and how weak Pakistan was. The whole Western world were looking for blood after 9-11 and they would have been more than happy to have nuked Pakistan. That is how bad the situation was in 2001. Also, at that time, the whole world was with america. The americans had a free hand to do whatever they wanted. It seemed like the whole world wanted to genocide Muslims. General Musharaff navigated Pakistan out of this crisis. The only downer was that Pakistan appeared to be weak. But that is better than Pakistan being destroyed as was a possibility right after 9-11.

 

[VCheng]

the OP is talking as if Pakistan is some sort hyper power.

Nonetheless, Pakistan remains the world's one and only Muslim country with nuclear weapons.

 

[Isotope]

People who have started to think that America is done with now after Afghanistan withdrawal, it is no longer a strong military power and blah blah. Just remember, America has only taken one step back ward to take two steps forward in future. America is still the sole super power of the world with an enormous military might and resources as of now. China is definitely catching up due to it's intelligent policies and probably will eventually catch up, but it's not quite there yet.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

People who have started to think that America is done with now after Afghanistan withdrawal, it is no longer a strong military power and blah blah. Just remember, America has only taken one step back ward to take two steps forward in future. America is still the sole super power of the world with an enormous military might and resources as of now. China is definitely catching up due to it's intelligent policies and probably will eventually catch up, but it's not quite there yet.

No one is saying america is finished. Far from it. But it's not going to have it's own way like it did between 1991-2021. There will be stern opposition and the rest of the world is no longer over awed by them either.

 

[Isotope]

No one is saying america is finished. Far from it. But it's not going to have it's own way like it did between 1991-2021. There will be stern opposition and the rest of the world is no longer over awed by them either.

Even in previous moments when America seemed vulnerable, America reigned supreme. Now however, something appears to be changing. America seems mired, its very ability to rebound is in question. That is due to a new power which has emerged on the world stage to challenge American supremacy—China—with a highly destructive weapon the Soviet Union never possessed "mutually assured economic destruction".

Though China, unlike the Soviet Union, is able to offer a measure of wealth, vibrancy, and technological advancement albeit not yet to the same level as the United States

US still has the largest economy, weapons to destroy the world, the military reach to control it, and the economy to continue growing rich from it. It draws in talented outsiders to study, build businesses, and rejuvenate itself, molding and dragging the world with it as it does, influencing and distorting those who are unable to escape its pull.