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Operations in Dir and Buner

PA is putting much more numbers than you are aware of...:)
You see they have been strengthening FC to be strong enough to act as the anvil...you will see in the coming days what commitment PA has actually made...Now we all know that no action can have 100% guarantee of success but this is what you all have been asking Pakistan to do...to take serious action
PA is doing exactly so...the numbers and weapons caches of TTP dictate the use of this doctrine though i am sure the special forces within FC etc. were being formed to deal with post Army Hammering scenario...This is Phase1

time to show us some love man...give some positive messages to make us relax on the eastern border...i am sure now India should realize that we are indeed serious enough to merit some show of mutual respect and understanding from India...
:cheers:

AG

Thanks. I agree totally with the last para:cheers:

If they are now putting in the numbers, good.

The posts went from why PA was unwilling to engage in the first place and the reasons being floated around. In a span of a couple of days, they seem to have become redundant. As such, the topic is redundant too.

Now its a question of how things work out. I think Zardari has taken the correct step in Washington today, saying Afghanistan is a regional issue and as such Indian help will be needed. I guess post election if we have a majority government and not a lame duck, we shall definitely see some positive steps being taken.

A greater engagement at diplomatic level will definitely play a major role in dealing with this threat. In the meanwhile, am hoping that PA kicks the ***** and seals the border, so the US may do the same in Afghan theater. Its been a long time and a good news is long overdue.
 
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Hell

i accentuate....




If a military force is so overwhelmed by 'dynamic and fluid' situation, then what difference remains between a 'trained' military and a bunch of rag tag militia?

Operations have to be fluid and complex, a platoon being attack by two platoons in a frontal fashion is something that we found in books. On ground things are drastically different and demanding. Had the case been that simple there was no need for selecting best men for the Armed Forces in indo-Pak scenario.

It is said that during a war the first casualty if the plan itself.

You expect a brigade to attack you but find a Division with lots of Armour, and then you sh!t in pants because you have to take immediate measure to conform wit this new threat and then you also complain about the situation being unexpected and fluid....guud military insight indeed!

You attack i defend, then i counter attack and you defend, and then the game over slide pops in and ask you have to put in a few more coins to start a new game, is something that dont happen on the ground and in reality. These things look guud in training schools where 2+2 is always 4.

Any Army is trained to take on new challenges and guud commanders had always prepared for the unforeseen and contingencies.

Complaining about a professional Army of being drawn back due to a fluid and dynamic situation (for which actually it had been trained for) is not a very dialectic approach, Mr Doc.



So what?

Are you thinking that villages are being pounded by tons of metal just like that?

Or are you obsessed by what the IA has been doing in Kashmir?

We have been facing more populace in Wana and Balochitsan, speaking frankly this one is simpler.

And utmost care is exercised to minimize the thing known as 'collateral damage', but this doesn't mean that we are going to send in the infantry without adequate fire support or without softening up and 'shaping the battlefield.'


You are absolutely correct, but i wonder why to always miss the phun part?

Anywaz, refer to my above reply on this.

We are not the US military who are firing the Laser Dazzler (and live ammo previously-in Iraq) on everyone moving 'thing' on the road with a fear that it might be a suicide bomber, but this actually screws every second car/vehicle and even the poor chap on the bicycle who after being temporarily blinded hit somebody or something.


i'll appreciate the fact but not the fiction.


Again you are right, but you again missed that this is not Siachen or snowline Kashmir. As for the shifting nature if met conditions we dont mind sending up another Radiosonde!



Lollzz.. how else do you engage the dead grounds? With direct firing and line of sight weapons!!??

Yes there is nothing that can be done to the ground which is dead even to (high angle) artillery fire. Sorry you have to live with that. Or may we can send in some troops to do the job, after the surroundings have been cleared.


Non-combatants in far flung mountains after the start of a full scale operation.:what: You probably have mixed the militants with the civilians. i wonder what a 'non-combatant' is doing on a mountain peak when other like him has already fled the area.

And i heard unexploded DPICMs creating problems for own troops but not for the militants (whom you claim to be non-combatants), BTW, there is something known as self destruct munitions...:bunny:


Ya it is. What's the fuss about it?

Do you think the commanders on ground are so naive that have even forgotten the basic principles of employment of armour?

i think you need to come out from your barrack in Kashmir and visit your home once:)


Oh i love fishing, trout is my favorite:smokin:

Be my guest.

Why should i?

Ever heard of something called a 'trademark'?:bunny:

Chill, and try to leave the valleys of Kashmir out of Swat and Buner!

My thanks to you for this post........ too good


and although I can sit and argue for the sake of it and do hold a divergent view, I submit to your assesment beiung better as its your country

and your posts are enigmatic as always ..... and a pleasure to read ....... thanks:cheers::agree::)
 
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man u army guys talk as if u plan to write a book..... too long posts
i think i have got my answer of y army is using artillery and armour and i think hellfire is rit in sayin that we will need a gud number of troops to hold the territory after we make these talibans run away.

sorry

got carried away;)

hope you were not bored to death :cheers:
 
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total extremist tally to death goes up to 135 according to ISPR.

now my question is,whether these people will hold their gorund against such an offensive i dont think so, they might try to relocate instead of fighting back, what exaclty happened during north n south waziristan operation. or they might go quite n pop up once thing gets cool down

any idea what army is doing to cover these apprehensions?
 
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"I perceive that once they are broken they will come down to 10-20 man teams doing hit and run but for now it is round one and TTP would try to take on PA in conventional warfare..."

I wonder, too. First things first, though, while clearly having an eye to the post-battle reconstruction and rehabilitation. Somebody in your government needs to model and begin forming teams to go in with the army and make assessments.

The guerrillas may just fade. If so, they won't be gone far and shall do all they can to make rebuilding impossible, I fear. The pot stirring in SWAT sufficient to prevent rehab means refugees elsewhere stewing over the mess.

The militants, therefore, don't have to WIN to win. Like Afghanistan, staying in the game is victory for them.

Absolutely. Post military action, the government has to take the re-construction and consolidation phase in the same urgency as they did during the 2005 earthquake. Massive economic help and considerable LEA presence so these militants do not regroup again.
 
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Points and counterpoints will progressively go on

I agree to quite a lot of your contentions but disagree on few more. So shall let it rest at this point as its redundant to keep dwelling into same points repeatedly.

Thanks for the reply.

Absolutely. They always do. Good to hear your perspective on this situation though from the prism of Indian ops in Kashmir.
 
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Absolutely. Post military action, the government has to take the re-construction and consolidation phase in the same urgency as they did during the 2005 earthquake. Massive economic help and considerable LEA presence so these militants do not regroup again.

BTW, is there a single-head for the groups controlling these regions or is it multi-headed coalition ? I am asking this because I am wondering about after effects when the major operations have ceased.

Will it remain smouldering like Afghanistan or be put-off like Balkan wars once the leadership is taken down? The use of overwhelming power or not might depend on how the enemy is organized too, right ? Especially since as Hellfire said the enemy will adapt to your tactics -- take out the leadership and the enemy cannot adapt due to lack of a cohesive organization.
 
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Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


Taliban commander Ibne Aqil reported killed in Matta
* Nine soldiers also killed, seven in ambush on convoy in Mingora


PESHAWAR: Jet fighters and helicopter gunships pounded Taliban hideouts and centres in various parts of Swat and Lower Dir on Thursday, killing 60 Taliban.

“We have carried out airstrikes today on known centres of militants killing around 60 [Taliban] in Swat and Lower Dir,” chief military spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas told Daily Times by telephone from Islamabad.

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Hellfire, here is a tactic they can adopt to, but can't adapt!
 
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Ah, no policy, and old article, and a recent airstrike seem to sum your doctrinal musings.

Seven and one-half years and three countries (Iraq, Afghanistan and, now, Pakistan) shape our combat operations. We receive daily lessons across a spectrum of insurgent conflict you can only imagine- to include those of our allies.

Combat in this environ seems a tad more complex than you allude and I'm suggesting that your army may, but you haven't yet drawn all the relevant lessons-at least not on display here.

As always, I'll look forward to your further thoughts.
 
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S-2

Thanks sir, for letting me off the hook so easily :agree:


Seven and one-half years and three countries (Iraq, Afghanistan and, now, Pakistan) shape our combat operations. We receive daily lessons across a spectrum of insurgent conflict you can only imagine- to include those of our allies.

Precisely. Your indoctrination is from an overseas exposure, where the parameters guiding policy formulation for combat operations within own territory and amongst own population DO NOT come into play. As such, the latitude that may be granted you in terms of employment of type of fire support may not be granted to a force operating in a domestic theater.

Combat in this environ seems a tad more complex than you allude and I'm suggesting that your army may, but you haven't yet drawn all the relevant lessons-at least not on display here.

You are bound to have your views, and I respect quite a majority of that. But you may be a bit too severe here. Yes the combat operations in these environs are extremely complex. The confrontation is NOT won militarily BUT politically and socially. You may dominate the battlefield/engagement area to no end, but if you have managed to turn the public opinion against yourself for whatever reason, then transformation from peace enforcing army to occupying army hardly takes moments. That is why have been questioning the rationale for employment of massive amounts of firepower in own areas, as it will lead to massive amount of destruction, displacements and at times avoidable civillain casualties. The leeway given to own forces in such an environ is very less and as such the armed forces can ill afford to be seen unnecessarily draconian. Its a battle which is being won presently, but the war is far from over and it shall revert to urban type with cadres soon melting into local population and launching more devastating attacks which may NOT necessarily be limited to FATA region anymore.

The issue, I have let it rest for now. It shall come up again.

Thanks
 
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Here is something that I have stated above. Comparing Indian COIN experience with Pakistan's recent campaign is like comparing apples with oranges..read on:

insight: Different sides of a different COIN —Ejaz Haider

When the army goes into an area where the insurgents are in control, it has to actually capture territory against an adversary that is both entrenched and flexible. It is not a matter of a few fire-fights

Some Indian analysts at a recent conference pointed out that the Indian Army relied on ground troops for COIN (counter-insurgency) operations while the Pakistan Army was using helicopter gunships, heavy artillery, armour and fighter jets. Because some of them were former military officers, this argument surprised me.

Interestingly, I have also got many emails from Indian readers using the same argument. It is grounded, mostly, in a sense of pique: our boys are more professional and they can do it, and did it, better than you have fared.

There are two issues here: one deals with professionalism, the other with the question of whether the COIN operations Pakistan Army is dealing with have the same magnitude, extent and severity as those conducted by the Indian Army.

As for professionalism, it would be plain bad faith and, worse, poor analysis, if I were to cast doubts on the quality of officers and men of the Indian Army. The Indian military, all services included, is a tremendous fighting outfit and has retained its fine traditions. For the most part, it also has a much-longer and consistent experience of COIN operations than the Pakistan Army (the sub-text here implies the degree of difficulty of dealing with insurgencies). So that is that.

Having set this aside, let us move to the issue of the difference between what the Indian Army faced and what the Pakistan Army is facing.

At no point, not even in Kashmir at the height of the freedom struggle, did the Indian army face insurgents at the scale, both in terms of numbers and the area under their control, which the Pakistan Army is confronted with. The only slightly close parallel is the IPKF’s (Indian Peace Keeping Force) operations against the LTTE and we know that that was not a success story.

In Kashmir, even as the population was alienated from the Indian state, three factors favoured India’s COIN operations:

One, there was full deployment of the Indian Army along the Line of Control as an essential part of India’s Pakistan-specific military strategy. Active deployment along the LoC, constant patrolling and fencing of the Line ensured that crossing east-west and west-east was never easy. When trouble in Kashmir started, the Indian Army beefed up its presence by inducting additional battalions of paramilitary and police. Soon after the Kargil conflict, the Indian Army raised another full corps for the area.

COIN operations inside Kashmir could, therefore, be easily plugged into the existing ORBAT (order of battle) which was based on the Indian Army’s threat perception from Pakistan.

Two, at no point could insurgents hold ground in any area. They only relied on classic hit-and-run tactics. While the Indian Army at places was operating in a hostile environment, so were the insurgents. They did not, for the most part, have any real asymmetric advantage over the Indian Army. Even when they found succour through an alienated population, that did not translate into any sustained advantage in terms of internal lines of communication.

The local population, despite being alienated, never could really offer cadres in numbers that could help them control any areas or create viable operational bases. The effort was given a fillip with “guest militants” but those cadres never had the same advantage that large numbers of insurgents from within the population can enjoy.

Given this, and given the fact that additional induction of troops had turned J&K into a large prison, the ability of insurgents to trouble Indian security forces remained very limited beyond mounting raids and ambushes before either getting killed or melting away.

Finally, specifically in Kashmir, the Indian Army was not operating against co-religionists. If anything, because Kashmir is Muslim and because the threat was linked up with the traditional enemy (i.e., Pakistan), the Indian Army did not need to “motivate” troops to fight.

Operating against Sikhs in East Punjab was difficult enough; operating against insurgent cadres of the Hindu rightwing, hypothetically speaking, would be a nightmare for the Indian Army.

Yet, and this is a matter of record, Indian soldiers committed suicides; deserted; ran amok and killed officers and comrades-in-arms; all of this being the upshot of the extreme stress that COIN operations, LICs (low-intensity conflicts) and IS (internal security) duties can extract from an army over a longer trajectory.

Also, it should be clear that at no point did the Indian Army require conducting any operation on the scale at which the Pakistan Army is operating. When it did, even so not to that extent, in the north of Sri Lanka, it ultimately cut its losses and got out, leaving the Sri Lankans holding the baby. Similarly, Maoist insurgencies in several parts remain a running sore.

In Pakistan’s case, a number of factors are different.

There is trouble in Afghanistan and groups operating on both sides have the advantage of internal lines of communication, kinship bonds, terrain, sympathetic populations, entrenched gun culture, a long history of warfare in the area, the same religion, a porous border, etc. This allows them to not only create operational bases in the mountain redoubts but actually control areas further afield.

That strategy is combined with flexible insurgent and terrorist tactics. Internal lines of communication, language, kinship and tribal bonds and loyalties allow them the advantage of operating in a friendly environment while turning the same environment to the disadvantage of the adversary. The strategy relies on a combination of territorial control and flexible guerrilla tactics. In other words, the groups can hold territory and also operate beyond it.

Finally, the ideological motivation runs beyond ethnic and tribal lines. That is the upshot of decades of state motivation, strategies and the long years of the Afghan jihad that created the Islamist International in this area.

So yes, when the army goes into an area where the insurgents are in control, it has to actually capture territory against an adversary that is both entrenched and flexible. It is not a matter of a few fire-fights. The operations involve recapturing territory and that cannot happen only through small arms-to-small arms gun battles. It has to involve mortars, direct fire from tanks, artillery, gunships and, because we don’t have too many attack helicopters, fighter jets as well.

It calls for difficult decisions. What do you do when insurgents are entrenched within the population in a built-up area: fight every inch of the way in and lose men or use artillery and air? The Israelis should be able to answer because they have taken out Hamas leaders in Gaza.

Both courses of action have their downside. One requires losing men; the other runs the risk of collateral damage. The latter course also puts pressure on the exchequer.

But the main issue has to do with scale, gravity and magnitude. And that is where the Pakistan Army is facing a threat the Indian Army has never had to. Even so, insurgencies in India, despite decades of efforts, have, at best, become simmering confrontations, diabetic cases that the polity has learnt to live with.

Lastly, the Indian Army has had the advantage of operating under the overhang of a majority consensus. The Pakistan Army, for various reasons, is still grappling with the problem of buy-in.

Ejaz Haider is Consulting Editor of The Friday Times and Op-Ed Editor of Daily Times. He can be reached at sapper@dailytimes.com.pk
 
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It calls for difficult decisions. What do you do when insurgents are entrenched within the population in a built-up area: fight every inch of the way in and lose men or use artillery and air? The Israelis should be able to answer because they have taken out Hamas leaders in Gaza.

Both courses of action have their downside. One requires losing men; the other runs the risk of collateral damage. The latter course also puts pressure on the exchequer.

This was a question by one of the Lt Col who happened to be discussing these kinda operations from the young officers during a model discussion (i actually made that one :D).

The situation thus painted was like this:
A village thickly populated,
A house complex in the middle of the village where the militants were taking refuge and the requirement was to take them out by artillery fire, if feasible.

And the YOs were going mad by suggesting radical measures and a few solutions offered by then even made us laugh.

It was a tricky situation: no collateral damage; and take out the bad guys. Going in for 'forced entry' was forbidden due to many reasons.

i wish we could have contacted the israelis at that time:lol:

But thankfully we did come to a viable solution and it was workable. It did involve artillery ofcourse but with zero probability (like 0.01 %) of collateral damage!

What the solution was; well stay tuned till the Army finally flushes out the last talib!:partay:
 
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