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And exactly what would have happened if you had not chosen to continue with British enforced FCR and asked the state to take over back at the times of independence ? Would this have happened by any chance ? The army would have moved in and took the security of the belt , the courts would have functioned , the police and the law enforcement agencies would have been there , the political parties would have been there with the voice of the people and the tribals would have had proper representation in the parliament of Pakistan , there wouldn't have been that much illiteracy and backwardness to fuel this extremism and militant problem you face today . You want to debate it in detail , lets get to the root cause of the problem back in history then . The majority of the problems of the tribes is due to the same " leave us alone " policy continued for a long time now .
Let me clarify one thing, i am not from FATA.
let me stress on the point again, tribals didnt ask British to impose FCR on them......it was ikhlaqi zimadari of British successor i.e Pakistan to abolish FCR in tribal areas while at the same time let FATA be an autonomous region........No tribal has ever condone condone FCR and has always demanded political reforms in FATA, which PPP government fulfilled it.....The turn out in FATA in this election was 36 % despite being a warzone while 42% in KPK....what does it indicate? people of FATA want to be part of political process of pakistan, they have even demanded their own province qabailistan.... They have to come to KPK for education and jobs.....it is propaganda against them that they dont want education, progress and development.....

Maybe you saw the advantage there , but what I see here is the enforcement of the same " bad habit " that will get some pat on the back because it succeeded , with nobody to ponder over why did it happen in the first place and why ? Why the so called Afghan Jihad took place and why the militants chose the F.A.T.A . as their next safe haven ? The Gun are not your jewellery , they are merely deadly weapons which are being used to make things even , they aren't toys to be handed over to a growing child , they are things to be possessed and controlled by the state .
Afghan jihad took place due to russian invasion...........and FATA was chosen as refuge and training ground for mujahideens by ISI......ISI extended help only to islamist factions in Afghanistan........Then they fully supported taliban during civil war......then musharf back-stabbed same talibans.......then he started military operation in FATA in 2004 on American orders for dollars...........TTP never existed before 2004 and before lal masjid operation.

So , Talibans aren't a significant problem in the tribal region , right ? Because of your " zewar " ? :azn: Is it so ?

Dont be a dumbass, lakki marwat and dir are not in FATA.......

I wouldn't term the peaceful and non aggressive nature of the people of Swat as cowardly , the army moved in and beat the crap out of militants to the extent that they are rarely even mentioned in the valley and merely a thing of the past . Can I say the same thing about the tribal belt with the presence of " weapons en masse " which you portray as the solution to all your problems ?
Operation rahe e raast was carried out with 60 thousand troops, air force and what not ,as if they are in war with india....just on a district.....the details of collateral damages are horrible.....swat is nowadays peaceful because of nature of its people, they were never hostile , not to taliban nor to army.......if you are weak , you will be crushed and humiliated by any one.........it is noteworthy that ancestors of yousafzais of swat destroyed mughal armies of akbar one after another when they tried to subdued them....in 19th century same yousafzais rejected taliban-like rule of syed ahmed bareilvi....kept sikhs away from their territories....in 1897 they revolted against british........but now what has happened to them?....iqbal has rightly siad, "hey jurm e zaifi ki saza marg e mafajat"
 
Pakistan has been pussyfooting dealing with these people since independence. It's bloody time that they are all wiped out. After this, I think it's high time we deal with the elephant in the room, Jhang.

1. Clean TTP / Bandits.
2. Clean LeJ. Jhang.
3. Wipe out LeT / JuD.

Then time for terrorist wings of political parties. Target MQM/PML(N)

Why PML-N?........many people claim that LeJ and LET are supported by ISI......a shia turi talking with me was quite confident that ISI is backing LEJ and LET....
 
Nope dear. LeJ was most definitely created by ISI's political directorate at the behest of Saudia, however, in it's later days the younger protege of the House of Saud, Nawaz Shareef took over the abetting and aiding of LeJ by covert and overt means. Look at it closely, how come they move so freely in Jhang?

Furthermore, don't forget LeJ is TTP, and TTP is LeJ. 30% manpower is tribal areas, whereas rest of the 40% manpower comes from the hub, Jhang. 100% of planning is done there as well.

Why PML-N?........many people claim that LeJ and LET are supported by ISI......a shia turi talking with me was quite confident that ISI is backing LEJ and LET....
 
In simple words " to play a much more constructive and progressive role in society " rather than confined at homes and made to breed children on demand !

It has nothing to do with being compulsory or not , such things have happened in the past painting a further gloomy picture of the women rights there . I am not being selective here , its good that the women went over to polling stations in insurgent hit areas but that doesn't mean that they have equal status as men there or somehow their condition has dramatically improved . I remember back in '97 when the same elders didn't want the women to vote in the elections for representatives from F.A.T.A .

Who grew up in America ? Are you under the influence somehow ? Where's this association with me and U.S. coming from ? :azn: I was born in Pakistan and have remained in the country for the entire time , what societal norms and ways of life I do not understand ?

I have said nothing about Hijab or Niqab or anything as you assume , I respect it as a personal choice and hate it when it is forced against the will of the women just like any other thing . I do not need an all Islamic lecture from anybody , least of all you , when I have only said that the women should be given a greater role in society , be allowed to study and not treated as little kids who aren't allowed to make their choices . If that somehow equals to being " decoration items " and all the " worst things/vices you have formulated over the years and can imagine it at the moment " just like you did with your imagined " Punjabification " some time ago , that isn't my fault . Otherwise , you can start by telling me , where did I say anything about " fashion shows " or " catwalks " and " wearing jeans " as per you ? I mentioned a little about women in KSA and Malaysia doing Hijab and still serving as equals in the society and playing a much greater role . Allama said a lot about other things too , his wisdom wasn't limited to your selective approaches .

My memory is not weak, you location was U.S, now you have changed it....

Any how you didnt tell me the role of woman in islam........why?....do you know only islam bashing? like westerns do.....tell me are you even practicing muslim?......Why allah "imposed" hijab muslim on women? are you defying orders of hazrat mohammad p.b.u.h and allah?

Nope dear. LeJ was most definitely created by ISI's political directorate at the behest of Saudia, however, in it's later days the younger protege of the House of Saud, Nawaz Shareef took over the abetting and aiding of LeJ by covert and overt means. Look at it closely, how come they move so freely in Jhang?

Furthermore, don't forget LeJ is TTP, and TTP is LeJ. 30% manpower is tribal areas, whereas rest of the 40% manpower comes from the hub, Jhang. 100% of planning is done there as well.

Tell me hyperion is it true that tribals dont want reforms, education, hospitals, roads etc and want to remain backward jahils as being implied by @Secur?
 
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Nahin yara, who doesn't like development and business opportunities that come with it? Always remember, we are traders first and then we are anything else.

Improve the roads, improve the infrastructure and we are all game, however, we don't like to be intimidated like (pardon my saying) people in Punjab. Like Punjab police has a go at people, and they submit to everything. We by nature can not be conquered, that does not mean we don't bow to justice, we do, however, not to blind justice.

Tell me hyperion is it true that tribals dont want reforms, education, hospitals, roads etc and want to remain backward jahils as being implied by @Secur?
 
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Let me clarify one thing, i am not from FATA.
let me stress on the point again, tribals didnt ask British to impose FCR on them......it was ikhlaqi zimadari of British successor i.e Pakistan to abolish FCR in tribal areas while at the same time let FATA be an autonomous region........No tribal has ever condone condone FCR and has always demanded political reforms in FATA, which PPP government fulfilled it.....The turn out in FATA in this election was 36 % despite being a warzone while 42% in KPK....what does it indicate? people of FATA want to be part of political process of pakistan, they have even demanded their own province qabailistan.... They have to come to KPK for education and jobs.....it is propaganda against them that they dont want education, progress and development.....


Afghan jihad took place due to russian invasion...........and FATA was chosen as refuge and training ground for mujahideens by ISI......ISI extended help only to islamist factions in Afghanistan........Then they fully supported taliban during civil war......then musharf back-stabbed same talibans.......then he started military operation in FATA in 2004 on American orders for dollars...........TTP never existed before 2004 and before lal masjid operation.



Dont be a dumbass, lakki marwat and dir are not in FATA.......


Operation rahe e raast was carried out with 60 thousand troops, air force and what not ,as if they are in war with india....just on a district.....the details of collateral damages are horrible.....swat is nowadays peaceful because of nature of its people, they were never hostile , not to taliban nor to army.......if you are weak , you will be crushed and humiliated by any one.........it is noteworthy that ancestors of yousafzais of swat destroyed mughal armies of akbar one after another when they tried to subdued them....in 19th century same yousafzais rejected taliban-like rule of syed ahmed bareilvi....kept sikhs away from their territories....in 1897 they revolted against british........but now what has happened to them?....iqbal has rightly siad, "hey jurm e zaifi ki saza marg e mafajat"

Alright . I know the FCR was imposed on them by the British , I never denied it .
However , it appears that you haven't been reading the posts quoting the historical facts on what conditions the tribes joined the newly born state of Pakistan , they signed more or less 30 instruments of accession ( from different tribes ) to accede to the nation on one strange condition that the " FCR continues and their special status maintained " and that the Govt has little or no say in their matters and they be " left alone " and " none shall meddle in their affairs " . How exactly does the moral responsibility of the Govt of Pakistan remain when your elders and jirgas themselves favored the law to continue ? Blame them , not the state . The Govt has always wanted to abolish this special status and introduce political reforms , however if the tribals wanted the law to continue and have been silent all over the years , then again the blame is not with the Govt . Like I said , the silence is approval ! I have heard tribals protesting over dozen different things but not over the FCR which makes it look like they are eager to continue their old status .

Political reforms , sure . A little good thing happened , that some sort of representation was allowed but is it anywhere close to making F.A.T.A like a regular region of Pakistan , absolutely not ! Still encouraging , but sadly not enough . There is no propaganda , find me a link where tribals are protesting against the FCR and demanding state to take over . I haven't came across any . The first thing to do , when they chose to accept the jurisdiction of Pakistan over the region is to turn the weapons en masse to the Govt and leave the security to the state .

The whole thing has its roots on the special status of the land , nothing else that I wanted to say . I have never supported the Govt's decision to take part in the so called Jihad in the 80's . Red Mosque operation was a necessity for the militants to be reminded that their state inside the state wouldn't be tolerated at any cost .

Dimwit , show me one place where I mentioned them as part of the tribal belt ! :azn:

Wrong ! The strength never exceeded 45,000 even during the worst phases of the operation and besides airborne troops nothing significant was put forward there . Yes , its a war in ways more severe than the conventional one , learn to understand it as such . Collateral damages occur in such warfare , a reality that we have to accept . Swat has always been peaceful , possibly because the people there never had the obsession with weapons .

Yes , those stories of empires and kingdoms were applicable for the past , now a days , state/countries have the responsibility for the defense of the citizens which is Swat's case , the Islamabad has proved quite well . Those times of rebellion and taking over territories are long gone , technological advancement and the economical progression is the way forward . Otherwise everybody knows why the Afghans lost in the Third war with the British .

My memory is not weak, you location was U.S, now you have changed it....

Any how you didnt tell me the role of woman in islam........why?....do you know only islam bashing? like westerns do.....tell me are you even practicing muslim?......Why allah "imposed" hijab muslim on women? are you defying orders of hazrat mohammad p.b.u.h and allah?

No , your memory isn't weak , you are just a pathological liar . Otherwise , find me a single person who would have seen the flag of United States in my profile . You proudly use the Afghanistan one .

Learn about it yourself and then compare it with the general overview I gave you and the condition of women rights in the belt . I simply claimed that people do not even follow Islam whilst they shamelessly bring religion and pose themselves as " the purest Muslims " . Simple . I said something about the women in developed Muslim countries doing Hijab and still taking a more greater role in the progression of society , learn to read posts without trying to manipulate debates through religions . :azn:
 
@Hyperion

As much as I would like to believe it , my friend .

It is a fact that since the independence the tribals have resisted interference / reforms even positive ones from outside otherwise what is the meaning of continuity of FCR and the silence over it despite so much sufferings ?
 
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Nahin yara, who doesn't like development and business opportunities that come with it? Always remember, we are traders first and then we are anything else.

Improve the roads, improve the infrastructure and we are all game, however, we don't like to be intimidated like (pardon my saying) people in Punjab. Like Punjab police has a go at people, and they submit to everything. We by nature can not be conquered, that does not mean we don't bow to justice, we do, however, not to blind justice.

Yahi tou may inko samjaney ki koshish kar raha hun.........
Many members here are crazy, during tirah operation they were suggesting nuking FATA, giving it tora bora and red indian treatment and use of chemical weapons on them....i had to take the matter to mods.......its all because of the perception among them that barbarain savages live in the caves of FATA...who would kill you on sight and have locked their women in prisons as slaves lol....these imbeciles dont know that in the same of village of one clan, women dont need to wear burqa and come outside of homes for chores without wearing shuttlecok burqa...........that idiot @haviZsultan was claiming that in waziritsan women are forced to wear burqa inside their own homes.......mozh na ye janawar jorr di..
 
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Yara what do you want me to tell my unborn kids ? Let join rest of Pakistan where:

1. Nepotism rules.
2. People such a Ganjaz and Bhai Jan from Karachi rule the roost.
3. Police will threaten you.
4. Army will annex your lands and allot it to their beloved ones, and deny you your birthright.

It's high time that Pakistan gets it's act together first. Get running water, electricity. Eliminate lawlessness. Then as it improves, who doesn't want to join paradise. What say you?

@Hyperion

As much as I would like to believe it , my friend .

It is a fact that since the independence the tribals have resisted interference / reforms even positive ones from outside otherwise what is the meaning of continuity of FCR and the silence over it despite so much sufferings ?
 
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Yahi tou may inko samjaney ki koshish kar raha hun.........
Many members here are crazy, during tirah operation they were suggesting nuking FATA, giving it tora bora and red indian treatment and use of chemical weapons on them....i had to take the matter to mods

No , you are painting a wrong picture over all by saying " how the tribals way to protest is to go to war " and portraying them as savages yourself :D

Lie ! A single member suggested it only to strongly condemned by the others at that very time . This selective approach to things is very wrong . The moderators wont do nothing , everybody has a right to express his/her opinion under certain limits and balances .
 
Yara what do you want me to tell my unborn kids ? Let join rest of Pakistan where:

1. Nepotism rules.
2. People such a Ganjaz and Bhai Jan from Karachi rule the roost.
3. Police will threaten you.
4. Army will annex your lands and allot it to their beloved ones, and deny you your birthright.

It's high time that Pakistan gets it's act together first. Get running water, electricity. Eliminate lawlessness. Then as it improves, who doesn't want to join paradise. What say you?

Well , your kids will never have to face this . :D Mate , I would have understood this argument if

1) The tribal areas didn't have jirgas and elder rules
2) Lawlessness and choas was absent
3) Instead of law enforcement , the fellow tribes weren't threatening you and people weren't fighting over some small mountains and lands .
4) Not valid .

Bottom Line " Problem are everywhere , the state of Pakistan isn't perfect but it is doing 10x better than the tribal areas in every parameter - its only special region whose people are reluctant to accept the jurisdiction of the same country they are born in " :( If they done so back then during the time of independence and worked with the state , trust me they would have been in a lot better condition . I have nothing against them but to see a part of my country look almost like stone-age saddens me .
 
Yara, do the maths: Are 1.1 million people the problem or 178.9 million? :D

Don't tell me that because of our naughtiness, the growth of Federation of Pakistan has been stagnant for the past 60 years?

Excuses, excuses and more excuses. What say you? :P


Well , your kids will never have to face this . :D Mate , I would have understood this argument if

1) The tribal areas didn't have jirgas and elder rules
2) Lawlessness and choas was absent
3) Instead of law enforcement , the fellow tribes weren't threatening you and people weren't fighting over some small mountains and lands .
4) Not valid .

Bottom Line " Problem are everywhere , the state of Pakistan isn't perfect but it is doing 10x better than the tribal areas in every parameter - its only special region whose people are reluctant to accept the jurisdiction of the same country they are born in " :( If they done so back then during the time of independence and worked with the state , trust me they would have been in a lot better condition . I have nothing against them but to see a part of my country look almost like stone-age saddens me .
 
Yara I do understand. Hope you get the bigger picture as well. It's a deflection technique, trust me. Army and establishment need a bogeyman, what's better than the "bad-ol-tribals"?

Fire up those neurons mate, get that grey matter truly working. I expect much more than this from you.

Only if it had anything to do with the maths , mate :D

The question is not of number , but of the condition of people and their quality of life .

Hope you understand that .
 
Yara I do understand. Hope you get the bigger picture as well. It's a deflection technique, trust me. Army and establishment need a bogeyman, what's better than the "bad-ol-tribals"?

Fire up those neurons mate, get that grey matter truly working. I expect much more than this from you.

We have always had enough enemies to unite the nation and fuel the Pakistani nationalism if you know what I mean , we never needed one in the form of " bad-ol-tribals " who once liberated the 37% Kashmir for us and even today are considered as their saviors in Azad Kashmir and GB , mate . This is happening and what is happening is rarely a deflection technique . Only this time , it has gained prominence due to ongoing war but the situation has been like this for long minus the militancy , friend .

Actually , you are asking me to retrain my neural pathways :D
 
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