NYT Report is Direct Attack, Pak Army Spokesman.

[Solomon2]

Wikileaks is part of a CIA plot? Not only an unsupported allegation, especially from an intelligence service that lacks credibility, but a transparently unsupportable one - Wikileaks has revealed too much that is too damaging to the U.S. that has nothing to do with Pakistan.

This is the type of man who becomes Pakistan's chief intelligence officer? Why should anyone believe that he isn't just mouthing off to protect his butt?

 

[Rafi]

With all the propaganda and BS - Pakistan Army and ISI have a approval rating of 79% - to the people that matter the 170 million people of Pakistan.

A big STFU - to the CIA and the Yanks.

 

[Veritas]

When the NYT/US Establishment can actually provide credible evidence to support its inane claims, then and only then can their claims not be considered a smear campaign/propaganda against the ISI/PA, at the behest of the US Establishment.

So long as all we have is the US media regurgitating the statements of US officials, without independent verification, without credible evidence and without giving equal weight to the opposing POV, my position is completely valid.

Perhaps it is the responsibility of Pakistani media and establishment to debunk any of these claims. May be the unnamed Pakistani officials approach say Der Spiegel or Guardian to say their side of story. Facts are there are many ways of countering the narrative.

If reporting a Story that puts PA/ISI in bad light is a direct attack, perhaps presenting the evidence would be "An act of War".

May be Pakistani army should recruite grown men instead of boys and cry-babies.

 

[Solomon2]

When the NYT/US Establishment can actually provide credible evidence to support its inane claims -

We've been through this. U.S. credibility was demonstrated and Pakistani credibility destroyed when OBL was rooted out. A man who collects art need only display one masterpiece to convince people of his taste and discretion; the man proved to own a forgery is revealed as one with poor credibility and judgment. They need not be judged by the same standards in the next discussion of fine art.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Wikileaks is part of a CIA plot? Not only an unsupported allegation, especially from an intelligence service that lacks credibility, but a transparently unsupportable one - Wikileaks has revealed too much that is too damaging to the U.S. that has nothing to do with Pakistan.

Yet little of what is 'damaging to the US', such as US support for Baluch terrorist leaders, has been covered as extensively as speculative and unverifiable intelligence reports maligning the PA and the ISI - that is likely what the man is referring to.

This is the type of man who becomes Pakistan's chief intelligence officer? Why should anyone believe that he isn't just mouthing off to protect his butt?

His point, with respect to the wikileaks maligning the PA/ISI, is a valid one.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We've been through this. U.S. credibility was demonstrated and Pakistani credibility destroyed when OBL was rooted out.

What credibility? When did the US state that OBL was in Abbottabad and Pakistan deny it after an investigation?
For the US to claim that OBL was in a vast country of 180 million people, and Pakistan to claim it had no idea where he was, is not 'enhancing credibility at the expense of Pakistan'. Indeed, since Pakistan provided critical intelligence, through arresting Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and various other AQ members and handing them over to US custody, as well as critical intelligence on the man who turned out to be OBL's courier, validates Pakistan's efforts.

The Abbottabad raid only highlights US deceit and duplicity, in that it chose to deliberately humiliate an ally to undermine it, and ignored Pakistan's significant contributions against AQ that led to the tracking down of OBL.

And that said, the fact that the US leadership outright lied to the world, in the UN and elsewhere, on the issue of WMD's in Iraq, is not by any means 'cleansed' by this distorted story of the Abbotabad raid you want to concoct.

A man who collects art need only display one masterpiece to convince people of his taste and discretion; the man proved to own a forgery is revealed as one with poor credibility and judgment. They need not be judged by the same standards in the next discussion of fine art.

The US displayed no art - it displayed deception and duplicity - it betrayed the ally whose efforts against AQ played a critical part in finding OBL. Without KSM, and the hundreds of other AQ members and god knows how much more intelligence Pakistan provided the US, AQ would not have been reduced to its current status, and OBL would still be at large.

Ungrateful, lying and deceitful wenches is what the US Establishment is better compared to, and not some 'collector of masterpieces' as you may want to fantasize about in ignoring all the sins committed by the US Establishment here.

2 wars started - one out of arrogance and a refusal to negotiate, the other on a pack of lies. Several hundred thousand innocents dead, and the body count continues to rise - trillions lost in economic damages and direct spending on wars -and you actually think that the establishment you are an apologist for actually has 'credibility' and 'taste'.

Pretty close to evil is what it is beginning to look like.

 

[Vassnti]

When the NYT/US Establishment can actually provide credible evidence to support its inane claims, then and only then can their claims not be considered a smear campaign/propaganda against the ISI/PA, at the behest of the US Establishment.

So long as all we have is the US media regurgitating the statements of US officials, without independent verification, without credible evidence and without giving equal weight to the opposing POV, my position is completely valid.

If you cant trust the NYT or the unnamed "officials" how about a source closer to home.

It is said that a wounded animal is most dangerous. Our military is behaving like a wounded animal and trying to shut down all dissenting voices. The military operation in Balochistan is a clear example of how the army deals with dissent. And the way the journalist community is now under constant threat is another example of the military’s highhandedness. But this must not deter our brave and bold journalists; as it is there are only a few of them who do not succumb to such pressure. Journalists are not the ones defaming the armed forces; the military establishment is itself responsible for defaming Pakistan.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Perhaps it is the responsibility of Pakistani media and establishment to debunk any of these claims. May be the unnamed Pakistani officials approach say Der Spiegel or Guardian to say their side of story. Facts are there are many ways of countering the narrative.

Pakistan's government and military have both officially refuted the allegations, and that is what is most important. We await the US to substantiate its claims.

If reporting a Story that puts PA/ISI in bad light is a direct attack, perhaps presenting the evidence would be "An act of War".

Why? Only a deliberate attack against Pakistan would be an 'act of war', the rest is just rhetoric, though it does betray intentions. If anything, 'evidence' would offer the accused something tangible to refute and negate - right now all we have is speculation and hearsay.

May be Pakistani army should recruite grown men instead of boys and cry-babies.

Perhaps you should tell us what else the PA should do, and make sure it is what the 'Indian boys, not cry-babies' would do.

At the moment I completely agree with the response of the PA. Escalating the response beyond that is the job of the civilian government, not the PA.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If you cant trust the NYT or the unnamed "officials" how about a source closer to home.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Are you serious? I usually respect your input, but you do realize that you are trying to justify speculation and propaganda in the NYT by resorting to another source that references the very same 'NYT Article', and offers absolutely no more independent confirmation or evidence of the NYT claims.

This is exactly what 'repeat a lie enough and even a lie becomes the truth' refers to ...

 

[Meengla]

I am going to resist calling NY Times anything without proof.
However, NY Times has at least once made a headline about Pakistani security agencies still assisting militants. When you read that article all you saw was reference to RETIRED military officials. The headline grabbed the attention for the 'sound bite' purposes. Hell, it could have been 'Pakistanis helping Martians Attack Planet Earth' while the content could be about making salads or fixing your computers. Okay, not quite that drastic deviance but you get my drift.
In my opinion, even major news sources like NY Times cannot resist having privileged access to 'un named sources' to spice up their headlines. Well, much of the noise against Pakistan is coming after the OBL raid despite, to this date, providing not ONE evidence of Pakistani complicity. It is clear to me that Obama administration, for whatever reasons, has decided on a different track to push Pakistan to 'do more' even if some actions are in direct conflict with Pakistani interests in Afghanistan (viz a viz India).
And what NY Time says eventually percolates to the world media in one form or another.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In my opinion, even major news sources like NY Times cannot resist having privileged access to 'un named sources' to spice up their headlines.

Any 'Foreign Affairs journalist' is useless without access to high level/inside sources in the relevant government departments.

You want those sources and you want a career? You have to publish what the Establishment wants as well.

After all, the careers of these American journalists are not going to be made or broken in Pakistan, they will be made in the US, and in the US they need the 'inside Establishment sources' to keep talking to them.

All it takes is some intelligent tweaking and manipulation by the concerned Establishment officials - 'patriotism' and 'support the troops' takes care of the rest.

 

[Meengla]

@Agno,
To NY Times' credit, they are not quite as shameless as, say, Fox News is. NY Times resisted those calls from the attack-Iraq crowd and declared the war against Iraq as unjustified before it began in the spring of 2003.
But, essentially, you are correct: Journalists' career get great boost from inside knowledge. Look at Bob Woodward? He is probably a multi-millionaire because of his inside knowledge, privileged access to lead to his wonderful books. So why wouldn't some other blooming Woodward make his millions by the inside knowledge now?

 

[Solomon2]

What credibility? When did the US state that OBL was in Abbottabad and Pakistan deny it after an investigation?

There is no confidence that if the U.S. revealed that it suspected OBL's exact location that by the time there was an official investigation OBL would still be there.

...since Pakistan provided critical intelligence, through arresting Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and various other AQ members and handing them over to US custody -

KSM was a competitor. OBL was the guy who ensured Pakistan stayed on the U.S. bankroll. It's as if Britain, upon receiving oodles of U.S. aid in WWII, decided to squander it on cross-channel guns, luxurious castles, and killing Irish rather than invade Europe to eliminate Nazi rule.

The Abbottabad raid only highlights US deceit and duplicity -

The fact that it was necessary is bad. The fact that the U.S. was capable of carrying out such deeds effectively was a surprise, at least to me.

...the US leadership outright lied to the world, in the UN and elsewhere, on the issue of WMD's in Iraq, is not by any means 'cleansed' by this distorted story of the Abbotabad raid you want to concoct.

It doesn't have to be. The WMD-Iraq thing is yesterday's news and, at worst, mistake of judgment, one shared by many intelligence services; that doesn't mean the U.S. "outright lied" at the time.

Ungrateful, lying and deceitful wenches is what the US Establishment is better compared to -

I am not surprised that ingratitude, lying, and deceit hover near the surface of Pakistani minds. But "wenches"? Is that how you see America, as a woman to be screwed at will so you get upset when we don't roll over for you?

Pretty close to evil is what it is beginning to look like.

I could voice my opinion here, but you'd probably characterize it as "a direct attack on Pakistan" or some such.

 

[Juice]

With all the propaganda and BS - Pakistan Army and ISI have a approval rating of 79% - to the people that matter the 170 million people of Pakistan.

A big STFU - to the CIA and the Yanks.

Lol, ISI doesn't have the sack.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There is no confidence that if the U.S. revealed that it suspected OBL's exact location that by the time there was an official investigation OBL would still be there.

The neutralization of Ramzi Yousuf, KSM, Libbi and scores of other mid level AQ Operatives would indicate otherwise. Pakistan, and the ISI/PA, in fact had a lot to gain from a successful AQ capture/kill operation.

KSM was a competitor. OBL was the guy who ensured Pakistan stayed on the U.S. bankroll. It's as if Britain, upon receiving oodles of U.S. aid in WWII, decided to squander it on cross-channel guns, luxurious castles, and killing Irish rather than invade Europe to eliminate Nazi rule.

I thought 'rebuilding Afghanistan' was why the US was there? And your British analogy falls apart given the 140,000 troops redeployed from the Eastern front to the Western one, and the huge amounts of resources spent on equipping, training and related infrastructure to develop FIBUA and COIN capabilities in a military trained for a conventional war.

More lies, distortions and deliberate omissions is all you and your ilk can offer.

The fact that it was necessary is bad. The fact that the U.S. was capable of carrying out such deeds effectively was a surprise, at least to me.

Hence the criticize of the PA/ISI in Pakistan - it trusted the US too much, and allowed itself to be deceived and humiliated.

It doesn't have to be. The WMD-Iraq thing is yesterday's news and, at worst, mistake of judgment, one shared by many intelligence services; that doesn't mean the U.S. "outright lied" at the time.

It is not about 'news', it is about the attitude of the US Establishment and its willingness to manipulate the media and manufacture lies and deceive the world to invade and impose war on nations, and cause hundreds of thousands of innocents to die, that comes forth with the Iraqi WMD lies. Whether US intelligence capabilities have changed since is irrelevant - what is clear is that the US lied and deceived the world over WMD's in Iraq, and the US lied and deceived Pakistan, and ignored the significant contributions of Pakistani intelligence in the fight against AQ and in finding OBL.

Lies and deceit is what these events expose the US Establishment mindset as being.

I am not surprised that ingratitude, lying, and deceit hover near the surface of Pakistani minds. But "wenches"? Is that how you see America, as a woman to be screwed at will so you get upset when we don't roll over for you?

Is that how I see the US Establishment, absolutely - but you may want to brush up on your English vocabulary and clarify your definitions.

I could voice my opinion here, but you'd probably characterize it as "a direct attack on Pakistan" or some such.

'voice your opinion' any more than the poison you and your ilk spew against Pakistan non-stop?

---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 PM ----------

Lol, ISI doesn't have the sack.

Right - that's why the US is cutting off $800 million in aid ...