NSG EXPANSION: A SURPRISING TWIST

[ashok mourya]

Nsg is a group created against India. Surprisingly except China who was earlier supportive now against India's nsg membership other members are agree to accept India. Then what's the role nsg after India joins it?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

On what grounds Pakistan should be given?

Don't hide behind some cooked up stories some Spokesperson blabber.

Pakistan don't have any active reserves of Nuclear material nor they have any research going on any potential reactor technologies. Entry of Pakistan is just your reason to block India's bid. India don't mind having Pakistan, it's not a threat to us having Pakistan in a group together. It's just an export control regime. Any decision India make cannot be nullified by Pakistan and vise versa.

Your argument is that India has more merit than Pakistan to join the NSG, even though the NSG was set up due to India's nuclear proliferation, by stealing from your Canadian reactor in order to make illegal nuclear weapons.

 

[Peshwa]

Your argument is that India has more merit than Pakistan to join the NSG, even though the NSG was set up due to India's nuclear proliferation, by stealing from your Canadian reactor in order to make illegal nuclear weapons.

india did it for its own use and not to arm rogue nations like libiya and NK.
Clearly india did not have a cartel and an open market for stolen nuclear tech. Something Pakistan is guilty of!
Huge difference!
Indias track record on proliferation is impeccable.(here im using proliferation in terms of illegally selling the tech to other nations for profit or favor,not adding to its own capability)

 

[Chhatrapati]

Your argument is that India has more merit than Pakistan to join the NSG, even though the NSG was set up due to India's nuclear proliferation, by stealing from your Canadian reactor in order to make illegal nuclear weapons.

You sound like NSG was formed to oppose India. The organization may have been formed as a result of India, outside the UNSC developed a nuclear weapon. If it was formed against India, why did NSG gave a waiver exclusively for India.

India enjoy almost all the freedom of an NSG member, while Pakistan cannot openly sophisticated designs. India Nuclear agreement with many of the countries in NSG. All these makes India's claim legitimate.

But, because big China has some grudges against India, it can't allow India to be part of it. It's not Pakistan, It's not some NPT (where French got in without signing any NPT). Just China can't. Let's see how long will you hold up.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Somewhat similar.

If you'd been on long enough, you'd have known that I am equally hated by Pakistani and Indian members. For similar reasons.

In my experience generalization of a group of people is never a good thing...but to each his own I guess.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In my experience generalization of a group of people is never a good thing...but to each his own I guess.

Of course it isn't. And a prime example is to say that we do it all the time.

 

[Cookie Monster]

india did it for its own use and not to arm rogue nations like libiya and NK.
Clearly india did not have a cartel and an open market for stolen nuclear tech. Something Pakistan is guilty of!
Huge difference!
Indias track record on proliferation is impeccable.(here im using proliferation in terms of illegally selling the tech to other nations for profit or favor,not adding to its own capability)

Just bcuz u r using a selective definition doesn't actually clear India's record in front of NSG. NSG was formed in response to India's misuse of civilian nuclear tech. U will hardly find a country that's clean in this regard.

- UK and US teamed up in the Manhattan project along with Canada under the Quebec Agreement to develop the first ever nuclear weapons(something that countries are forbidden to do now)
- France helped start Israeli nuclear weapons program
- France's nuclear weapons program was aided for further development by US after France had initially developed nuclear weapons independently
- Soviet Union helped kickstart China's nuclear weapons program
- India diverted the civilian nuclear tech provided by Canada towards its weapons program
- China most likely helped Pakistan and North Korea with their nuclear weapons program
- Pakistan sold some nuclear tech to Libya, Iran, and North Korea

So u see nobody is clean here...as the saying goes "is hamam mein sub nangey hain". It's just that the world powers who were the first to develop such weapons and be in this elite group now forbid other countries from doing exactly what they have done in the past. A bit hypocritical to say the least but then again that is how the world works.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Laloo at Large --- again

The Author is from Pakistan ---- What more to Say !!
southasianvoices.org has No Standing -----

Same Gentleman has written another HyperBola Article on Pakistan- Russia --- This forum is Becoming Pure Trash Now !! Wonder what Scrutiny the Moderators are doing ?

PAKISTAN-RUSSIA RELATIONS: OLD PLAYERS ON A NEW TRAJECTORY
https://southasianvoices.org/pakistan-russia-relations-old-players-new-trajectory/

Yasir Hussain
@yasirhunzai1

Yasir Hussain is SAV Visiting Fellow July 2017. He holds a masters degree in International Relations from Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad. He has a deep interest in global issues, particularly nuclear arms control and disarmament, nuclear safety and security, political economy, and conflict resolution. He tweets @yasirhunzai1.

More ironically hes from Hunza,Gilgit Baltistan.. And a Shia...

Just bcuz u r using a selective definition doesn't actually clear India's record in front of NSG. NSG was formed in response to India's misuse of civilian nuclear tech. U will hardly find a country that's clean in this regard.

- UK and US teamed up in the Manhattan project along with Canada under the Quebec Agreement to develop the first ever nuclear weapons(something that countries are forbidden to do now)
- France helped start Israeli nuclear weapons program
- France's nuclear weapons program was aided for further development by US after France had initially developed nuclear weapons independently
- Soviet Union helped kickstart China's nuclear weapons program
- India diverted the civilian nuclear tech provided by Canada towards its weapons program
- China most likely helped Pakistan and North Korea with their nuclear weapons program
- Pakistan sold some nuclear tech to Libya, Iran, and North Korea

So u see nobody is clean here...as the saying goes "is hamam mein sub nangey hain". It's just that the world powers who were the first to develop such weapons and be in this elite group now forbid other countries from doing exactly what they have done in the past. A bit hypocritical to say the least but then again that is how the world works.

South Africa and israel scandal.

 

[Peshwa]

Just bcuz u r using a selective definition doesn't actually clear India's record in front of NSG. NSG was formed in response to India's misuse of civilian nuclear tech. U will hardly find a country that's clean in this regard.

- UK and US teamed up in the Manhattan project along with Canada under the Quebec Agreement to develop the first ever nuclear weapons(something that countries are forbidden to do now)
- France helped start Israeli nuclear weapons program
- France's nuclear weapons program was aided for further development by US after France had initially developed nuclear weapons independently
- Soviet Union helped kickstart China's nuclear weapons program
- India diverted the civilian nuclear tech provided by Canada towards its weapons program
- China most likely helped Pakistan and North Korea with their nuclear weapons program
- Pakistan sold some nuclear tech to Libya, Iran, and North Korea

So u see nobody is clean here...as the saying goes "is hamam mein sub nangey hain". It's just that the world powers who were the first to develop such weapons and be in this elite group now forbid other countries from doing exactly what they have done in the past. A bit hypocritical to say the least but then again that is how the world works.

I agree. But I also didn't say the world was fair.
The point is that those nations that benefited from pakistans proliferation are a world headache now, so clearly the focus shifts to the negative perception of the Pak nuclear program.
Not to mention the current war against isis and Islamic terrorism puts more Focus on pakistans nuclear program as world powers want to prevent nukes in the hands of isis etc and hence look at past behavior as a precedence. Pakistan being an Islamic republic clearly does not help the cause.

I mean the nsg waiver is the most clear example of what you can call a bias.
But at the same time, it is also drawing a line between what is the definition of proliferation I have provided vs. what you've stated above. Clearly my definition is the view world powers currently subscribe to Including china.

It's the world we live in..
You can't hate the player, hate the game!

 

[Cookie Monster]

I agree. But I also didn't say the world was fair.
The point is that those nations that benefited from pakistans proliferation are a world headache now, so clearly the focus shifts to the negative perception of the Pak nuclear program.
Not to mention the current war against isis and Islamic terrorism puts more Focus on pakistans nuclear program as world powers want to prevent nukes in the hands of isis etc and hence look at past behavior as a precedence. Pakistan being an Islamic republic clearly does not help the cause.

I mean the nsg waiver is the most clear example of what you can call a bias.
But at the same time, it is also drawing a line between what is the definition of proliferation I have provided vs. what you've stated above. Clearly my definition is the view world powers currently subscribe to Including china.

It's the world we live in..
You can't hate the player, hate the game!

With the exception of North Korea other nations like Libya and Iran are not a world headache. They r more like the opposing side...opposing the west in a sense. They r just perceived as a headache bcuz the current world order bends to the will of the western powers.

North Korea is also in that opposing camp but there is no justification there...I can't say much about their ppl but their leader is definitely a crazy power hungry psycho.

Iran and Libya...they r(in Libya's case 'were') working towards their own interest which happen to go against the western view...does that make them evil? If that's how evil is defined then that makes every country evil from some other country's perspective. As u said don't hate the players hate the game...I agree with that...let's not vilify Iran and Libya in this case, they r just playing the game for their own goals.

As for India's NSG waiver...that's nothing about India's record being clean. It is simply about money. The member nations of NSG also happen to be the ones that sell civilian nuclear energy...be it the nuclear power plants or the fuel. With India having the second largest population and developing fast...all they saw was that there's money to be made.

Of course it also helps that the US and the west want to align with India to balance China. So they r currently bending over backwards to give India an edge in every possible way. They are willing to go to the point to amend NSG rules and guidelines to give India an entry...but this is the same US that threatened to attack India just a few decades ago.

Basically the point is that if u think that India has this NSG waiver and a possible chance at being a member bcuz of some "impeccable record" then u r mistaken. It's simply that India has money to offer and is a pawn that can be used in this grand game of chess for strategic gains.

Also I know this narrative of Pakistan's nukes being unsafe is constantly preached to the world but I don't think that it's based in reality. Nukes are Pakistan's insurance policy. India fields a much larger conventional force...and Pakistan's open declaration of first use and a possible threat of MAD scenario is vital for Pakistan's existence. They r not about to let their nukes fall into the hands of some ragtag terrorist group that easily. And not even a shred of evidence has ever been produced which shows any serious security lapse within the authorities safeguarding Pak's nuclear assets.

 

[Musafir117]

Wec

Somewhat similar.

If you'd been on long enough, you'd have known that I am equally hated by Pakistani and Indian members. For similar reasons.

We love you Joe, don't worry about tiny percentage they hate everything lol.

 

[RowdyRathore]

India will be included into NSG now or later.
You shouldn't put India & Pakistan into same equation.
Pakistan has proliferated in the past and not provided the International Atomic Energy Agency access to Dr. A.Q. Khan (who ran a clandestine nuclear network) Only India appears to have established credentials good enough for the NSG to have granted it a waiver from its export rules.
Why insist on common criteria (for NSG membership) when the non-NPT states have little in common?

We are a nation of 1.3 billion people & growing and our energy needs are growing so on. India already adhere to climate protection norms be it Paris Accord or something else.
Now how we are going to achieve clean energy objectives?
If not Nuclear. By solar? or Wind? India committed to clean energy like solar. Out of World's 10 largest solar power plants 3-3 are in India & China. India has world's largest solar powrr plant of 2700 MW capacity.
Solar require very large amount of land & investments on solar panel & costly Battery Backups with very least per sq. metre electricity generation.

There is no big issue as it was created because world should have to accept India's membership otherwise you have to miss flight of climate agreement.This is simple give and take policy.

India will be free to burn cheap fossil without any limitation & China can carry on this cat & mice gameplay.

 

[Chichago_bulls]

Your argument is that India has more merit than Pakistan to join the NSG, even though the NSG was set up due to India's nuclear proliferation, by stealing from your Canadian reactor in order to make illegal nuclear weapons.

With due respect, how come that become illegal ???? Just because you say so ??? Before India's nuclear test in 1974 there was no such thing called NSG. So how did our nuclear test become illegal and the tests before us conducted by U.S.A, UK, France, Russia and even China became completely legal ????? Hypocrisy at the best I guess.

Moreover the essence of NPT, is non-proliferation as well as complete disarmament by recognized Nuclear weapons states. Please check the Article 6 of NPT.

Article VI

Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a Treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.

http://www.un.org/en/conf/npt/2005/npttreaty.html

The NPT came to existence in 1968, we conducted our first test only in 1974. 6 Years after NPT was introduced. But no one in the world saw any serious progress towards Nuclear disarmament from 1968 till date from the recognized nuclear states including China, why ????

First show example to the world by taking action on the rules that you made yourself and let others follow. If you can't at-least follow the rules you made we would say go to hell.

Regarding NSG, we have clearly stated. India doesn't have a problem with Pakistan becoming a member of NSG along with us or after that. Now it is upto the members to decide what they think is the best. But don't expect India to sign the all biased NPT just to legitimate some countries as Nuclear weapons state even when they are not ready for disarmament completely against the spirit and essence of the very Treaty. Shame on all permanent Nuclear states. :-(

 

[wiseone2]

It does make sense because America wants India to lend a helping hand in Afghanistan with boots on the ground. This may be Trump's stick to make India work for its carrot.

India does not have a border with Afghanistan. enough said

 

[wiseone2]

With the exception of North Korea other nations like Libya and Iran are not a world headache. They r more like the opposing side...opposing the west in a sense. They r just perceived as a headache bcuz the current world order bends to the will of the western powers.

North Korea is also in that opposing camp but there is no justification there...I can't say much about their ppl but their leader is definitely a crazy power hungry psycho.

Iran and Libya...they r(in Libya's case 'were') working towards their own interest which happen to go against the western view...does that make them evil? If that's how evil is defined then that makes every country evil from some other country's perspective. As u said don't hate the players hate the game...I agree with that...let's not vilify Iran and Libya in this case, they r just playing the game for their own goals.

As for India's NSG waiver...that's nothing about India's record being clean. It is simply about money. The member nations of NSG also happen to be the ones that sell civilian nuclear energy...be it the nuclear power plants or the fuel. With India having the second largest population and developing fast...all they saw was that there's money to be made.

Of course it also helps that the US and the west want to align with India to balance China. So they r currently bending over backwards to give India an edge in every possible way. They are willing to go to the point to amend NSG rules and guidelines to give India an entry...but this is the same US that threatened to attack India just a few decades ago.

Basically the point is that if u think that India has this NSG waiver and a possible chance at being a member bcuz of some "impeccable record" then u r mistaken. It's simply that India has money to offer and is a pawn that can be used in this grand game of chess for strategic gains.

Also I know this narrative of Pakistan's nukes being unsafe is constantly preached to the world but I don't think that it's based in reality. Nukes are Pakistan's insurance policy. India fields a much larger conventional force...and Pakistan's open declaration of first use and a possible threat of MAD scenario is vital for Pakistan's existence. They r not about to let their nukes fall into the hands of some ragtag terrorist group that easily. And not even a shred of evidence has ever been produced which shows any serious security lapse within the authorities safeguarding Pak's nuclear assets.

As far as Iran not being a headache tell that to your Saudis friends.

India has provided less than $15 billion in business on nuclear reactors. It is not enough to change votes

Pakistan has no business selling technology to North Korea, Iran and Libya. India's NSG waiver is a direct outcome of Pakistan's short sighted behavior