Not so secular India

[matrix_neo]

Ive been to India , thank you for your sweet concern.. loved the experience, but still think my country was a better idea for Muslims(or at least a loose federation).

santro, u've been to India??? and then u talk this way! which states did u visit??? plz tell me if u found hindu fundamentalists or whatever raping muslim women, killing innocents,and desecrating Mosques and the Holy Quran.. ok, leave that. just tell me if u heard about such incidents when u visited, probably muslims, in India... and plz don't get Godhra in picture, that was one odd incident 10 years ago. talk about the ten years since then...

 

[Roybot]

Actually, as I wrote some pages back, the debate is less about whether India is secular, but more about whether the secularism is under threat from rising Hindu nationalism.

A lot of people see India's rise as a revival of Hindu identity. The question is what impact it will have on India's secularism.

A lot of people is a gross exaggeration. Not even a tiny minority thinks that way. Indians at the least the middle class don't care about these things.

So there won't be any negative impact on secularism. If anything the rise of India will make our secularism stronger.

 

[kavish]

Actually, as I wrote some pages back, the debate is less about whether India is secular, but more about whether the secularism is under threat from rising Hindu nationalism.

A lot of people see India's rise as a revival of Hindu identity. The question is what impact it will have on India's secularism.

I don't want to categorize our people on d name religion, but still i m giving my view
a random way:

1)indian cricket team: india always has/had around 4-6 non-hindus in its cricket Team.
2)Indian P.M is sikh
3)Dr A P J Abdul Kalam (indian president 2002 –2007)
4)...........
.......... etc.

tell something about Pakistan???

 

[matrix_neo]

The only state where religion plays a part is Uttar Pradesh. Muslims are pretty much the kingmaker in UP.

And there is no area prone to communal violence as such. The frequency of communal violence is going down as India progresses.

I couldn't agree more! In my childhood 25-30 years ago, there used to be riots almost every week in my hometown... and for last 15 years, I haven't even heard of one!!! one more funny incident I'll tell u guys,which I remember so VIVIDLY!! During India-Pakistan matches, if India used to win there used to be fireworks all across Patna except Sabzibagh, the Muslim majority area. and if pakistan used to win, it would surprise me to see whole patna quiet,and fireworks going on in full vigour in sabzibagh. I used to stay close to sabzibagh, so from my roof top, all these views were crystal clear... and I used to feel surprised as to why it happened, EVERYTIME!!!

fast forward to 1998 onwards, I haven't seen even one firework going on if pakistan wins.. and I'm sure this is not because of oppression or whatever.. because there have been no riots whatsoever as I told before... When india won this World cup, every guy was out of his house celebrating.. from SABZIBAGH to KADAMKUAN!!!!!

Moreover, laloo yadav, for all his corruption, was in favour of minorities.. and now we have nitish kumar for last 7 years, who just knows one word, development!!! and man, u need to see it to believe it!!! everyone talks about progress and development in my home-state nowadays... the funniest part is, the Hindu Taliban(!!!) BJP is a 50-50 partner in this govt, and even the Muslims voted for it!! otherwise how else could they win 90% SEATS !!!!!

and there goes all the talk about BJP govts killing minorities and snatching their fundamental rights....

 

[SQ8]

santro, u've been to India??? and then u talk this way! which states did u visit??? plz tell me if u found hindu fundamentalists or whatever raping muslim women, killing innocents,and desecrating Mosques and the Holy Quran.. ok, leave that. just tell me if u heard about such incidents when u visited, probably muslims, in India... and plz don't get Godhra in picture, that was one odd incident 10 years ago. talk about the ten years since then...

Ive been to UP mostly, lucknow, Agra.. and a small stopover in Dehli..
It was open, there was little communal problem.. except that you found no beef...Muslims bought from Muslims, and Hindus dealth with Hindus.. the newer generation seemed to be mixing it up.. but not that much.
There were still cases of me having to identify myself as a muslim at a chai stop near rae bareli so I could be given tea in the disposable cup...instead of the glass one(thank god I did not mention I was Pakistani)..
Saw some saffron wrapped jogi or whatever preaching dharmatma(or something to do with your asambhav..cant recall) in front of a mosque and I distinctly heard him get very upset at the mosque's fairly small speaker calling the Azaan.
I have relatives there, compared to them.. the side of the family that is in Pakistan is literally bathing in gold.
These people are very patriotic, they love India.. but do mumble it out about the time they needed to run away from a Hindu superiority gang that happened some time ago


As mentioned by Developero.. its not the secularism of most Indians in doubt..
its political motivations that keep that peace in a delicate balance.
Rapes, murders dont translate into the non-existence of secularism..
What does is when the state is being run by folks who believe in the superiority of a single religion over all others, and that religion's right to being the sole inheritor of the land.

---------- Post added at 08:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ----------

I don't want to categorize our people on d name religion, but still i m giving my view
a random way:

1)indian cricket team: india always has/had around 4-6 non-hindus in its cricket Team.
2)Indian P.M is sikh
3)Dr A P J Abdul Kalam (indian president 2002 –2007)
4)...........
.......... etc.

tell something about Pakistan???

How about trying to prove your point without bringing in Pakistan.. or is that too monstrous a task?

 

[kavish]

Ive been to UP mostly, lucknow, Agra.. and a small stopover in Dehli..
It was open, there was little communal problem.. except that you found no beef...Muslims bought from Muslims, and Hindus dealth with Hindus.. the newer generation seemed to be mixing it up.. but not that much.
There were still cases of me having to identify myself as a muslim at a chai stop near rae bareli so I could be given tea in the disposable cup...instead of the glass one(thank god I did not mention I was Pakistani)..
Saw some saffron wrapped jogi or whatever preaching dharmatma(or something to do with your asambhav..cant recall) in front of a mosque and I distinctly heard him get very upset at the mosque's fairly small speaker calling the Azaan.
I have relatives there, compared to them.. the side of the family that is in Pakistan is literally bathing in gold.
These people are very patriotic, they love India.. but do mumble it out about the time they needed to run away from a Hindu superiority gang that happened some time ago

I went in 2004..

As mentioned by Developero.. its not the secularism of most Indians in doubt..
its political motivations that keep that peace in a delicate balance.
Rapes, murders dont translate into the non-existence of secularism..
What does is when the state is being run by folks who believe in the superiority of a single religion over all others, and that religion's right to being the sole inheritor of the land.

---------- Post added at 08:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ----------



How about trying to prove your point without bringing in Pakistan.. or is that too monstrous a task?

look at initial 5 posts and who opened this thread.
no one except u people care about whether india is secular or not!! (no chinese, no American, no B.D etc..etc)

thats why Pakistan automatically comes!!!

 

[Loyus]

Yes and, when a middle class Hindu doesn't get a job or university entry, BJP tells him whom to blame: you lost out because Conbress reserved that position for a Muslim/Christian/Dalit.

Are you really a thinktank !!
There is no religious reservation in Cental level in India..

There are caste based and tribe based reservations in India which includes Hindus, Muslims and Christians..
The so called middle class that you are pointing to are not Hindus only.. There are Christians, Muslims etc etc too

India does not dicriminate on the basis of religlion !!! There is no relilgious discrimnatioin

 

[matrix_neo]

Ive been to UP mostly, lucknow, Agra.. and a small stopover in Dehli..
It was open, there was little communal problem.. except that you found no beef...Muslims bought from Muslims, and Hindus dealth with Hindus.. the newer generation seemed to be mixing it up.. but not that much.
There were still cases of me having to identify myself as a muslim at a chai stop near rae bareli so I could be given tea in the disposable cup...instead of the glass one(thank god I did not mention I was Pakistani)..
Saw some saffron wrapped jogi or whatever preaching dharmatma(or something to do with your asambhav..cant recall) in front of a mosque and I distinctly heard him get very upset at the mosque's fairly small speaker calling the Azaan.
I have relatives there, compared to them.. the side of the family that is in Pakistan is literally bathing in gold.
These people are very patriotic, they love India.. but do mumble it out about the time they needed to run away from a Hindu superiority gang that happened some time ago

I went in 2004..

As mentioned by Developero.. its not the secularism of most Indians in doubt..
its political motivations that keep that peace in a delicate balance.
Rapes, murders dont translate into the non-existence of secularism..
What does is when the state is being run by folks who believe in the superiority of a single religion over all others, and that religion's right to being the sole inheritor of the land.

Your post actually has confused me a lot!!! SERIOUSLY! will tell u why (wrt to each BOLD part):-

1. Beef is not allowed across India to preserve "communal harmony" ! and I stay in kerala, which is from some other planet!!! here everyone, I mean everyone, just eats BEEF!!! being a "normal" Hindu, I can't have beef or pork, and I can't find mutton here!!!! will tell u one more little secret, across India, 90% or may be more of all the butchers and meat-sellers are Muslims (which again I don't know why, but never bothered to question!!). so here u r surely wrong. (UP and Bihar are 98% similar in every way possible!!and my in-laws are based in UP, so I visit it a LOT to preserve "communal harmony" in my house!!!)

2. Nowhere in India have I even seen someone being asked for religion before being given tea!! and believe me, I don't have the word "Hindu" inscribed on my forehead! So,if true, that must have been "one in a billion case". and What more, in my school days cricket team we had 4 muslims, and one pseudo-christian (this a$$ was a hindu, but wanted to become a christian!! God only knows why!!!)and we used to have ice-creams and tea together, visit each-other's homes during Eid and Holi PRIMARILY for the FOOD!!!!
(and I tell u, no hindu lady can make sewaiyan the way its made in Muslim households, I don't know how!!!!!)

3. that saffron-clad jogi must have been one particular nut-case. and also, across the country, I find EACH and EVERY mosque transmitting Azaan through loudspeaker at such a high volume level that it irritates me!!! now now, before u declare me a RSS agent, the same loud noises used during Hindu festivals irritate me equally!!! and regarding ur post, NO MOSQUE in country plays it at a low volume. Here again, that day, their amplifier must have been under repair. and yet again I must tell u, people try to neglect this thing,because WE R NOT SUPPOSED TO INTERFERE IN ANYONE ELSE'S RELIGION!!! thats what happens across the country!

4. As regard to last part of your post--- U visited UTTAR PRADESH!!! The land where only Mulayam Singh yadav and Mayawati ahve ruled for last 15-16 years!! Mulayam will die but won't let even one Muslim being touched (not for any love, but because Muslims are his MAIN votebank!!! see his statements even today, Google it!).and Mayawati is the greatest supporter of Dalits and minorities in india. she has just one enemy-- UPPER CASTE HINDUS!!

now I will ask u again, are u sure u went to U.P. only????????

 

[Roybot]

Ive been to UP mostly, lucknow, Agra.. and a small stopover in Dehli..
It was open, there was little communal problem.. except that you found no beef...Muslims bought from Muslims, and Hindus dealth with Hindus.. the newer generation seemed to be mixing it up.. but not that much.
There were still cases of me having to identify myself as a muslim at a chai stop near rae bareli so I could be given tea in the disposable cup...instead of the glass one(thank god I did not mention I was Pakistani)..
Saw some saffron wrapped jogi or whatever preaching dharmatma(or something to do with your asambhav..cant recall) in front of a mosque and I distinctly heard him get very upset at the mosque's fairly small speaker calling the Azaan.
I have relatives there, compared to them.. the side of the family that is in Pakistan is literally bathing in gold.
These people are very patriotic, they love India.. but do mumble it out about the time they needed to run away from a Hindu superiority gang that happened some time ago

Am actually shocked that something like that happened to you in UP. Lucknow, Rae Barelli, Banaras is my home turf. We have some very close family friends who are Muslim. We are almost like family. I have even been to Pakistan as a baarati for a wedding

Yes beef is something you wouldn't find that easily though.

 

[Mech]

I dont a great deal about other states. But here in kerala , right now, we have a Christian chief minister, and a mix of Muslim - Hindu ministry. In our schools, colleges, hostels Muslims, Hindus and people from other religions study together, live together and eat together. Not once have i seen any one being discriminated on the basis of his/her religion....except in specific places of worship. I share a room with a Hindu brahmin and a Muslim and not once have there been a clash between us on religious grounds.

This sort of talk about "Hindu discrimination" is just plain silly. In my state, everyone....and i mean EVERYONE is treated equally when it comes to rights, education, religion etc.

In my opinion, Hindus are some of the most tolerant folks around. They treat members from other religion with respect and dignity as they would any other human being. A small minority of extremists in India does not make India "non-secular". The very fact that such movements never gain any foothold , in itself shows the greatness of India and her children.

 

[matrix_neo]

look at initial 5 posts and who opened this thread.
no one except u people care about whether india is secular or not!! (no chinese, no American, no B.D etc..etc)

thats why Pakistan automatically comes!!!

@ kavish: I support Santro here... We don't need to bring pakistan here. that will just derail the topic... We need to answer back these guys (and clarify if some of them have been ill-informed) only through truth and real things happening in India... i have just been trying to do the same... If u bring pakistan, there are 100 others who are waiting to derail this thread, and that's why they don't reply back to my posts..... i hope u understand buddy.

 

[Developereo]

Are you really a thinktank !!
There is no religious reservation in Cental level in India..

There are caste based and tribe based reservations in India which includes Hindus, Muslims and Christians..
The so called middle class that you are pointing to are not Hindus only.. There are Christians, Muslims etc etc too

India does not dicriminate on the basis of religlion !!! There is no relilgious discrimnatioin

Whether it's central or regional is irrelevant.

I won't do your homework for you. I suggest you educate yourself about your own country.

 

[matrix_neo]

@Mech: I was just bashing kerala in my last post!!!

@roy-gaurav: even I was surprised by what Santro said. it seems "almost" impossible that that tea-thing could happen in UP!

 

[matrix_neo]

Whether it's central or regional is irrelevant.

I won't do your homework for you. I suggest you educate yourself about your own country.

No developereo, that's what all of us have been trying to explain... may be one odd incident somewhere.. but in 99.9% cases, there's no discrimination... how else can u explain that the Army General in-charge of the most important Northern region including kashmir is a MUSLIM!!!! that's not a show-off! He's the one who will be fighting pakistan if God-forbid, there's a war today!!! if that can't satisfy u, I'm sorry my friend, but u have been brainwashed beyond correction.....

 

[Mech]

It is important for the world that "India" succeeds. Nowhere else in the world has such a nation ever existed. Nowhere else has such extremely diverse people with different cultures, tastes, languages, religions, music, art; ever co-existed. India is the living breathing example that world peace has a chance. It is the ultimate proof that man can live and work together as one......despite their differences.


Yes, i am an Indian....and VERY proud to be one.