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Not so secular India

Its like Pakistanis and Chinese are hell bent on proving India is not secular. It doesn't matter what they think but how Indians see it. I can also give blanket statements like all Pakistanis support terrorism, and all Chinese support killing their own men in the name of development. It would be impossible to refute these points as well when I disagree with every thing you say.

They are many Indian Muslims, Christians, Singhs, Jains and few Buddhists on this forum. They are all more than fine with India and that's all matters. And your accusations are just rants without support from people who are actually living it.

That's a strawman argument.

The debate is not whether India is secular, but whether Indian secularism is under attack from Hindutva ideology. This debate is not about Pakistanis or Chinese; Indians themselves are also having this debate.
 
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The words don't change but their scope keeps expanding.

I have been saying from the beginning - that its your assumption based on your prejudices. Not my heartache.


You don't need a think tank, just the ability to think.

Indian businesses in the Gulf deliberately put forward this image of Muslims being proportionally integrated in mainstream Indian society, even though Sachar gave the lie to this nonsense. The Indian companies skew the number of Muslims only in work groups destined for the Gulf. There is no similar representation of Muslims in Indian diaspora in Europe, the Americas or elsewhere. In other words, the Indian diaspora in the Gulf is specifically tailored to give a false impression to Arab clients.

With me so far?

How about simply "Going to gulf" does not need much mony in omparison to going to Europe/US, going to gulf is linguistically easy because of knowledge of Hindi,Malayalam, going to gulf is more profitable for unskilled labour, going to gulf is easy because there are already neighbours or friends working there ?

Are you foolish enough to think that Indian Govt/Companies screens and sends only Muslims to Arab countries while sending Hindus to Europe ?
face_palm_by_Draculasaurus.gif


People are free to choose to go where they want to go, provided they have the money , passport and a valid visa with no cases pending against them in an Indian court of law.

Now, this same logic of "we treat our Muslims well" applies when Indian diplomats and businesses deal with Arab countries. If India developed a reputation as a Hindutva state where Muslim rights were routinely trampled, the negotiations in rich Arab countries would be rocky Hence India must treat its Muslims well in order to maintain a certain international image.

And what will the Arabs do after our image gets damaged ? Launch biological weapons filled with camel farts ? Please man..do justice to your ThinkTank status. Please.



Again, you are deliberately dancing around the issue, so let me spell it out.

Indian Muslims do not see Islam and India as "two opposite poles", so they don't have an identity crisis.

Well lets just say I have seen, experienced it in first person. So obviously mine has more credibility than one who is just in denial.

Again you are deliberately mixing up things - they have no confusions on whether they are Indians or not. Their id crisis is spiritual or cultural given that bedrock of Rajput and Jat culture is Hinduism.


Only the Hindutva crowd sees this supposed incompatibility between being Muslim and being Indian,

Addressed above.


Good lord, do you again want me to spell out your circular logic?

According to you, any empire which contributed to Bharati culture was part of Bharat. Even if it was in Gandhara, Afghanistan or Myanmar!

Atlast the light dawns on the head.

A smaall nitpick - It is not in Myanmar - it is West of Myanmar.Myanmar was the boundary.

BTW I had already explained the place of Gandhara in Mahabharatha - one of the epics of Hindu (ancient Indian) civilization.


The fact is that there was no political entity that joined the heartland of modern-day India with the IVC during its heydey. Not for several hundred years afterwards. Any influence the IVC exerted onto the heartland was an "alien" influence.

Why 'modern-day' India comes into this picture ? Ah, the classical Pakistani propaganda that anything west of Modern day Indian border was not a part of Bharat..The burning desire (need) to disassociate from the Indian civilization. I understand.As without that assumption the TNT falls apart.

all the areas of modern day Pakistan,India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan were collectively Bharat and any culture anywhere in these areas are automatically a subset of the wider ancient Bharat civilization.


Neither the report, not the supposed rebuttal, disproved discrimination. At most the rebuttal tried to reinterpret the results and provide ridiculous canards like family businesses to diverty from the demonstrated issue of institutionalized discrimination. The links are there for people to check for themselves.

Yes and you need to check it first. It has clearly proved that there is no record of targeted discrimination or religious profiling that is going on that prevents Muslims from improving.
 
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That's a strawman argument.

The debate is not whether India is secular, but whether Indian secularism is under attack from Hindutva ideology. This debate is not about Pakistanis or Chinese; Indians themselves are also having this debate.

As I previously noted, your experience with Islam (a final and absolutist faith) has made you believe that other religions are also like that.

That is not the case.

Unlike Islam (or for matter Christianity, Judaism) Hinduism does NOT have the concept of absolutism - in other words that it is the only true path. It emphasizes that it is just one of the paths to Nirvana.

So as you can see, tolerence/respect to other faith is a core concept of Hinduism - history over the centuries bears testimony to that - and that is why Hindus can speak of religion and secularism in the same sentence without contradicting themselves and how 'Hindutva' forces cant attack secularism as Hindutva itself prescribes 'secularism'.

You are just confused.
 
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With each desperate posts by Pakistanis on how India is not 'secular' - posts # 249, # 210 are being proved.

Congrats :tup:
 
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Its like racism and racists.

Are Western countries and societies liberal and multicultural? Yes they are. Do you still find pockets of racist bigots, yes you do.

Same with secularism in India. Government can't force people to be secular. There are laws in place to make sure that no one is discriminated against based on religion and every one gets equal opportunities. And that for me is secularism.
 
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With each desperate posts by Pakistanis on how India is not 'secular' - posts # 249, # 210 are being proved.

Congrats :tup:

You are trying hard to reject everything ..keep it up :D

Do you think India is truly a secular country and there is not any room of improvement in different areas ?
 
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You are trying hard to reject everything ..keep it up :D

Do you think India is truly a secular country and there is not any room of improvement in different areas ?

The good can get better, yeah.

But its the denial that there is a 'good' thing by Pakistanis that is provoking my replies.
 
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Its like racism and racists.

Are Western countries and societies liberal and multicultural? Yes they are. Do you still find pockets of racist bigots, yes you do.

Same with secularism in India. Government can't force people to be secular. There are laws in place to make sure that no one is discriminated against based on religion and every one gets equal opportunities. And that for me is secularism.

You are right but secularism is not possible if peoples/leaders are biased towards minorities. Laws are there but laws cannot be implemented without neutral/secular peoples. Imagine you guys cannot be neutral and cannot control your emotions even on forums how you will be neutral if there is any Hindu vs Muslim or Christian vs Hindu conflicts? Hindu leader will have soft corner for fellow hindus while muslims leader will feel for muslims and boht will say that other side was at fault..even police will take side in such unfortunate riots between indians belong to different religions..

---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 AM ----------

The good can get better, yeah.

But its the denial that there is a 'good' thing by Pakistanis that is provoking my replies.

and same is true for opposite side..when did you indians look for positive things in Pakistan beside terrorism? :)
 
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Can any country truly be secular ? That means getting rid of all the religious influence and culture it brought Secular india will be hard but not harder then secularizing pakistan it's best both countries stay true to their natural roots Liberal fascists like to destroy that.
 
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You are right but secularism is not possible if peoples/leaders are biased towards minorities. Laws are there but laws cannot be implemented without neutral/secular peoples. Imagine you guys cannot be neutral and cannot control your emotions even on forums how you will be neutral if there is any Hindu vs Muslim or Christian vs Hindu conflicts? Hindu leader will have soft corner for fellow hindus while muslims leader will feel for muslims and boht will say that other side was at fault..even police will take side in such unfortunate riots between indians belong to different religions.

Very small minority(people and leaders) who are biased against minorities. And our judiciary is very independent and fair. You should look at the recent Godhra train burining and Gujarat riot case sentences.

And as far as Religious riots and conflicts are concerned, its no where as bad as its made it out to be by Pakistanis on this forum. I wouldn't be surprised if more people got killed in Shia-Sunni conflicts in Pakistan than the communal riots in India.

Riots have marred the sub continent well before modern India came into being in 1947. If anything the frequency has gone down and this trend will continue as more and more people get educated and the country prospers.
 
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and same is true for opposite side..when did you indians look for positive things in Pakistan beside terrorism? :)

The difference is that our 'secularism' or the lack thereof does not affect the ordinary Pakistani while the terrorism emanating out of Pakistan affects us directly.

So it is but natural that we are concerned about it. As for good things about Pakistan, how does it concern me or how does it affect me ?
 
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Can any country truly be secular ?


That means getting rid of all the religious influence and culture it brought Secular india will be hard but not harder then secularizing pakistan it's best both countries stay true to their natural roots Liberal fascists like to destroy that.

actually yes secular principles work in wetsern countries becuase majority peoples are secular/atheist without any emotional attachemt with religion

If Indians peoples are not secular then what is point of having secularism? Its like we try to introduce secular laws in tribal areas of Pakistan. Will they work? No. Why not? Because peoples are not secular

Pakistan would have not existed on map if congress/hindu leaders remain secular and give equal opportunities and representation to Muslims.
 
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The difference is that our 'secularism' or the lack thereof does not affect the ordinary Pakistani while the terrorism emanating out of Pakistan affects us directly.

So it is but natural that we are concerned about it. As for good things about Pakistan, how does it concern me or how does it affect me ?

So you only care about yourself ? Sure racism and discrimination within your country may not affect us but it affect peoples who live in your country and you should not mind if Pakistani discuss it. I think you are forgetting that Pakistan suffered most and lost more in terrorism than anyone else but still you peoples spend hours to prove that we support terrorists and terrorism..
 
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Can any country truly be secular ? That means getting rid of all the religious influence and culture it brought Secular india will be hard but not harder then secularizing pakistan it's best both countries stay true to their natural roots Liberal fascists like to destroy that.

Again this is the problem (an innocent one though) when people of Abrahamic faiths speak about how a pre-requisite for secularism is the abandonment of religion altogether.

It is not the case with Hinduism. The core concept of Hinduism is secularism and there is no inherent contradiction in practising both of them simultaneously.


So you only care about yourself ?

I care about my country, my people. Minding other nationalities is none of my concern.

Sure racism and discrimination within your country may not affect us but it affect peoples who live in your country and you should not mind if non Pakistan discuss it.
If it does not affect you, I cant understand why are you losing so much heat discussing about it.

I think you are forgetting that Pakistan suffered most and lost more in terrorism than anyone else but still you peoples spend hours to prove that we support terrorists and terrorism..

Sell this hokum to innocent American Joe about how you are the victims of terrorism. Not to an Indian who knows the reality why you suffer. :disagree:

You suffer because of the ill-advised policies of your own Generals and Mullahs, not because of any one else.
 
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