'No Pakistani official had knowledge of Osama': Grenier

[blackops]

Get over this topic yar it has gone boreing these days

 

[lem34]

I would say that america finding him is circumstancial evidence that isi was not hiding him becasue if they were i dont belive america would have found osama america does not know pakistan better than ISI

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Direct evidence ? No.


What 'circumstantial evidence'? SO far it is outright speculation.

Again, a town with a military academy in it, not a 'garrison town', and it had no where near the kinds of 'entry/exit' checks the media and some commentators keep harping about.

And if OBL had a 'support system', why was he raising goats and chickens in the compound and growing vegetables to feed the residents, and, given the conditions of the compound and lack of facilities, living a rather poor life?

If not one single neighbor suspected terrorist activity in the compound, let alone suspect OBL lived there, then how on earth was the military supposed to know about it?

Why would he have anything outside of an AQ 'support system for sure'? You have to explain with evidence why you claim 'for sure'.

Sure, please dig up more of his exact comments and quotes.

He had to have a support system , that is for sure . the world will not believe otherwise . what that support was ? we don't know yet but in a city where according to the Americans and even Pakistani press there is heavy military presence , it is hard to imagine how no one came to know for 6 years .

As i said the circumstantial evidence is not strong enough to nail anyone but it will continue to play on the minds of the west when thinking about Osama being found in Pakistan .

 

[SMC]

The circumstantial evidence you're providing is debateable itself, but circumstantial evidence doesn't mean ****. We can nail both Bharat and US for supporting TTP based on circumstantial evidence.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

The circumstantial evidence you're providing is debateable itself, but circumstantial evidence doesn't mean ****. We can nail both Bharat and US for supporting TTP based on circumstantial evidence.

Yes , it is debatable because we don't yet know what information if any at all USA has about the support system he got .Support system has to be there though . From who ? That is the real question .

For your information , in law circumstantial evidence is considered very strong if it can't be refuted .Cases can be decided solely on its basis

 

[somebozo]

Dead osama is more dangerous than alive osama..what an irony!

 

[Abingdonboy]

What level of resources had Pakistan devoted to hunting down a man that they strongly believed was either dead or irrelevant, and what level of resources did the US devote to the same man?

And will you also deny that Pakistan's arrest of people like KSM and hundreds of other mid to low level AQ members, along with the intelligence on the courier that eventually led to OBL, did not play a part in the US finding OBL?

How could you call Pakistan incompetent when Pakistan's role in tracking down OBL was significant - the only reason Pakistan looks incompetent is because the US chose to betray Pakistan, hide intelligence from it and unilaterally conduct an illegal raid inside Pakistani territory.

Come on! Don't stick your head in the sand, you've got to see how it looks. A man of OBL's infamy or a man for that manner building a $1,000,000 USD compound in the middle of a military town meters from a military academy and no one seeks out who owns it/lives there at the very least you'd think the MP's of the local academy would check due to the security scenario of Pakistan and the proximity of this house to an important military establishment. Again collusion or incompetence. But I know for a fact from a friend I studied with here in the UK who lived not too far from the compound that every new arrival was met within 24hrs by ISI agents asking who lived there, how many and what was there purpose. Collusion or incompetence? And let's be honest if this was a rare incident (ISI/security services helping terrorists) then maybe, but it's NOT. Remember Rashid Raulf?

Pakistan manhunt for escaped British terror suspect | UK news | The Guardian


This self admitted murdering terrorist "escaped" on the way back from court when he asked to go to the toilet and a high-priority , high-profile terrorist was removed of shackles and "somehow" managed to stroll out the back. Incompetence or collusion? and what do you make of the fact the US chose not to share any information regarding the raid with the GoP? Is this how a "trusted ally" is treated? Does this indicate the level of trust the US has that the GoP isn't involved in terror activities or helping OBL out. OBL had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes because he expected a phone call to warn him so he could get out, and how would he get this info if not from someone in the GoP/ISI.


There is something deeply wrong within the Pakistani security establishment, they are either incompetent beyond belief or are involved with these terrorist SCUM up to their collective neck. I believe the answer is a bit of both, somewhere in the middle. Please don't just do the typical thing of flat out refusal and blaming an outsider as I believe/hope you know the truth. And if you don't then God help us.

 

[Respect4Respect01]

yes, no Pakistani official had knowledge because there was no osama, he died in 2006 or before that.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Come on! Don't stick your head in the sand, you've got to see how it looks. A man of OBL's infamy or a man for that manner building a $1,000,000 USD compound in the middle of a military town meters from a military academy and no one seeks out who owns it/lives there at the very least you'd think the MP's of the local academy would check due to the security scenario of Pakistan and the proximity of this house to an important military establishment. Again collusion or incompetence. But I know for a fact from a friend I studied with here in the UK who lived not too far from the compound that every new arrival was met within 24hrs by ISI agents asking who lived there, how many and what was there purpose. Collusion or incompetence? And let's be honest if this was a rare incident (ISI/security services helping terrorists) then maybe, but it's NOT. Remember Rashid Raulf?

Pakistan manhunt for escaped British terror suspect | UK news | The Guardian


This self admitted murdering terrorist "escaped" on the way back from court when he asked to go to the toilet and a high-priority , high-profile terrorist was removed of shackles and "somehow" managed to stroll out the back. Incompetence or collusion? and what do you make of the fact the US chose not to share any information regarding the raid with the GoP? Is this how a "trusted ally" is treated? Does this indicate the level of trust the US has that the GoP isn't involved in terror activities or helping OBL out. OBL had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes because he expected a phone call to warn him so he could get out, and how would he get this info if not from someone in the GoP/ISI.


There is something deeply wrong within the Pakistani security establishment, they are either incompetent beyond belief or are involved with these terrorist SCUM up to their collective neck. I believe the answer is a bit of both, somewhere in the middle. Please don't just do the typical thing of flat out refusal and blaming an outsider as I believe/hope you know the truth. And if you don't then God help us.

This is what most of the neutral and anti-Pakistani world believes but such circumstantial evidence isn't enough to nail anyone .Unfortunatley .

 

[SMC]

^ I am afraid what people in the western world believe isn't relevant. Look up argumentum ad populum. They also believed Iraq had WMDs and at one time believed earth was flat.

 

[Imran Khan]

thats mean they don't know abut there home and CIA know more then them?

 

[ziaulislam]

osma according to officials moved during the massive earth quake in 2005 using it as a cover..after that he never came out and lived with tribal people which are common folk..had the Indonesian not been caught by Pakistan (alqeda no.1 in eastern asia and wanted for bali attacks)..osama would never have been discovered

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Come on! Don't stick your head in the sand, you've got to see how it looks. A man of OBL's infamy or a man for that manner building a $1,000,000 USD compound in the middle of a military town meters from a military academy and no one seeks out who owns it/lives there at the very least you'd think the MP's of the local academy would check due to the security scenario of Pakistan and the proximity of this house to an important military establishment. Again collusion or incompetence. But I know for a fact from a friend I studied with here in the UK who lived not too far from the compound that every new arrival was met within 24hrs by ISI agents asking who lived there, how many and what was there purpose. Collusion or incompetence? And let's be honest if this was a rare incident (ISI/security services helping terrorists) then maybe, but it's NOT. Remember Rashid Raulf?

Don't be daft -
1. The 'million dollar mansion' claim has been pretty clearly shown to be bogus, and pushed into the Western media to add sensationalism to the account.
2. The place was derelict, had two AC's for all the residents, and they raised chickens and goats and grew vegetables to feed themselves, and per US accounts, OBL was pretty short of funding.
3. While your account of 'met by ISI agents within 24 hours' is anecdotal, even if it were true, the actual owners of the compound were not on a 'Wanted' list and checked out. So regardless of how many times 'ISI agents interviewed the new residents' there was nothing to be suspicious about in terms of their background.

This kind of speculative and outright nonsensical 'evidence' is what gives rise to conspiracy theories like the '9/11 attacks by the CIA/Mossad', but when the West does it with respect to Pakistan and Abbottabad it is called 'circumstantial evidence', while the Muslim world is 'conspiratorial and paranoid' for arguing similarly about the 9/11 attacks.

This self admitted murdering terrorist "escaped" on the way back from court when he asked to go to the toilet and a high-priority , high-profile terrorist was removed of shackles and "somehow" managed to stroll out the back. Incompetence or collusion? and what do you make of the fact the US chose not to share any information regarding the raid with the GoP? Is this how a "trusted ally" is treated? Does this indicate the level of trust the US has that the GoP isn't involved in terror activities or helping OBL out. OBL had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes because he expected a phone call to warn him so he could get out, and how would he get this info if not from someone in the GoP/ISI.

Rauf's case is not an analogy to apply here - he was in the custody of local police (hardly the paragon of non-corruption and efficiency) and escaped. In that case it was quite clearly either 'collusion or incompetence', but that does not apply here since the situation was completely different.

The case of OBL is one where no one had much of a clue as to his whereabouts after Tora Bora, and he kept a low profile in hiding until a series of mistakes and Pakistan and US crackdowns on AQ and intelligence tips led to his compound.

There is something deeply wrong within the Pakistani security establishment, they are either incompetent beyond belief or are involved with these terrorist SCUM up to their collective neck. I believe the answer is a bit of both, somewhere in the middle. Please don't just do the typical thing of flat out refusal and blaming an outsider as I believe/hope you know the truth. And if you don't then God help us.

Nothing is wrong with the Pakistani military and intelligence establishment - you have to make more of a case than '9/11 was a CIA/Mossad job' based on speculative arguments, in order to make the claims you are.

Local Pakistan law enforcement, politicized, underpaid, under-trained, under-equipped, and corrupt, is a different argument.

 

[SMC]

I am quite tired about this non sense that either Pakistan must be incompetant for not finding OBL or must have supported him. Well guess what then, one can make the same argument about 9/11 attacks, London 7/7 attacks, Madrid attacks, attacks that have taken place in bharat over the years, etc. Get out of your delusion.

 

[jeypore]

What level of resources had Pakistan devoted to hunting down a man that they strongly believed was either dead or irrelevant, and what level of resources did the US devote to the same man?

And will you also deny that Pakistan's arrest of people like KSM and hundreds of other mid to low level AQ members, along with the intelligence on the courier that eventually led to OBL, did not play a part in the US finding OBL?

How could you call Pakistan incompetent when Pakistan's role in tracking down OBL was significant - the only reason Pakistan looks incompetent is because the US chose to betray Pakistan, hide intelligence from it and unilaterally conduct an illegal raid inside Pakistani territory.

Isn't that the true question afterall... Why did US Chose that scenario????