No Nobels, We're Muslim

[Developereo]

I define good governance as a state of social and political stability where the basic needs of most of the population are met. There has to be sufficient economic vitality to support the arts and sciences, either publicly or privately.

Almost by definition, good governance focusses people on this material world. Religion and spritituality are practised by choice as a self-actualization step (ala Maslow), rather than as a consolation from the dreariness of everyday life.

 

[muse]

I define good governance as a state of social and political stability where the basic needs of most of the population are met. There has to be sufficient economic vitality to support the arts and sciences, either publicly or privately.

Almost by definition, good governance focusses people on this material world. Religion and spritituality are practised by choice as a self-actualization step (ala Maslow), rather than as a consolation from the dreariness of everyday life.

And as I was thinking about your post, I pretty much had the same definition in mind, but this is problematic - we are after all talking about an empire - and not the british empire with bureaucracy - we have local straps and kings -- and this really muddies the waters, in the sense that we cannot or rather we will be open to challenge in making sweeping statements about "good governance" in a large, plural empire.

We must refine our definition of good governance - because we have to use the same definitions or attributes of them, after the 1e3 century

 

[Safriz]

Sandy


But this was not the case from the advent of Islam till the 13 century - what changed? After all, ALL the great scientists and philosophers were products of Madares - today Madares produce imbeciles, whereas in the period from the advent of islam till the 13 century, they produced geniuses - what changed??? What idea changd? How did innovator and free thinkers become heretics?

Too many of us wish to claim this legacy but wish to deny any connection between religious propositions and the lack of expansion of knowledge but do want to claim a connection between religious propositions and the expansion of knowledge from the period from the advent of Islam till the 13 century

experiences may differ...i know somebody who is a muftee and a PHD in chemistry.
for muftee you study 13\14 years in a madrisah.
even in pakistan there are many madrisahs where they teach both type of carriculums.....

 

[Developereo]

And as I was thinking about your post, I pretty much had the same definition in mind, but this is problematic - we are after all talking about an empire - and not the british empire with bureaucracy - we have local straps and kings -- and this really muddies the waters, in the sense that we cannot or rather we will be open to challenge in making sweeping statements about "good governance" in a large, plural empire.

We must refine our definition of good governance - because we have to use the same definitions or attributes of them, after the 1e3 century

Well, one of the hallmarks of modernity is the accordance to the common man of rights that were once reserved for the privileged.

So, working backwards, we could say that, in 13th century terms, good governance accords basic benefits to a sufficiently large privileged class?

PS. Good discussion. gotta go.

 

[lkozhi]

"Naguib Mahfooz, was stabbed in the neck by religious extremists. Orhan Pamuk was put on trial by the Turkish government for “insulting Turkishness”, because he talked of Kurdish and Armenian deaths in Turkey. Abdus Salam was virtually disowned by his country because of his faith."

From what i can infer the moment some one gets nobel in islamic world he becomes a target to extremists.
I think nobel committe thought for a longer life of this great men in islamic world and decided not to award any more nobels.

 

[Safriz]

ever heard of Alan Turing and what happened of him?
jealousy of such peoples success isnt only limited to islamic countries only.

 

[muse]

From what i can infer the moment some one gets nobel in islamic world he becomes a target to extremists.
I think nobel committe thought for a longer life of this great men in islamic world and decided not to award any more nobels.

Excellent - Why? Again refer to post # 22

The fact that such Islamist movements and governments have come to power and are trying to reconstitute Islam in the world today is no surprise. This is partly because Muslims still have great difficulties in dealing with the legacy of modernity, which many of us feel is alien to our culture and values. For at the heart of the project of modernity lies a healthy epistemological skepticism that leads us to the demystification of the human being. Modernity is characterized by the questioning of everything, of all that we once held dear and inviolable. It opens the way to plurality and diversity, but it can also be seen as a challenge to the worldview of the past.

Whereas Islamic religious leaders strongly discourage questioning, and offer a single religious epistemology of certitude - modernity does exactly the opposite - and this seems to be the crux of the problem for the so called Muslim world -they way they evaluate propositions is whether they like it or not whether it corresponds to the orthodoxy or not.

 

[Safriz]

^^ you must have read Quran and must have read the aayaat wherecmuslims are asked to look into the universe around them.
actually you get to sleep with 70,000 virging for researching into how the system works.
because it strengthens your beleif in God...in my case Allah.
this was the rule of the original game...Allah hide itself but left us to ponder on the evidence...

 

[Trisonics]

The key element missing here is secularism. A secular society leads to exchange of ideas and practices between religions. I personally have a friend who is the only kid. His father was a bus driver but he turned out to be the univ topper and the reason both he and his dad openly state is that they have a small family and a "hindu" math teacher when he was in 9th grade who changed the way he looked at math.

A muslim kid with high performing hindu friends will be driven to work harder.

The best school k-10 ICSE in Bangalore is Sophia High School, a school with strict Christian values and run by Catholic nuns. This school is number one and both hindus and muslims line up in the 100s when applications are given out.

 

[jdme]

Where did I say that it comes 'out of thin air'? What is your evidence that there is any correlation between religion and governance? What is the excuse for bad governance in south America or Africa?

It would be useful if you post something sensible instead of just posting knee-jerk anti-Muslim rants.

Because you are talking clap-trap BS in name of "bad governance". Africa has bad governance because people suck in Africa. They fight over gold, they fight over tribe, they fight over religion. They have no concept of human right, no vision...well some do..Bad governments merely reflect the stupidity of its people. South America has many good government and Pakistan will lucky to get one like that. Only thing shameful here is your own inability to recognize the root cause of problem. It is always the people.

 

[Safriz]

The key element missing here is secularism. A secular society leads to exchange of ideas and practices between religions. I personally have a friend who is the only kid. His father was a bus driver but he turned out to be the univ topper and the reason both he and his dad openly state is that they have a small family and a "hindu" math teacher when he was in 9th grade who changed the way he looked at math.

A muslim kid with high performing hindu friends will be driven to work harder.

The best school k-10 ICSE in Bangalore is Sophia High School, a school with strict Christian values and run by Catholic nuns. This school is number one and both hindus and muslims line up in the 100s when applications are given out.

i learned maths from "chakarwartee"
so did my dad...islam doesnt stop us from these things.

 

[muse]

JDME

We said we would afford every opportunity to refute and so lets do that - lets help Develepero build his argument and lets do it in a manner that makes it clear that we want him to construct as strong a case as possible

And when that is done, we will ask what we have been pointing to -- the contention is about why from the advent of Islam till the 13th century did learning and innovation flourish and not after -- Develepero has offered a huge explanation but after the many contortions and convolutions, it will become clear that we cannot avoid the relationship between islam and muslims and will have to explain in those terms - it is as if we are talking about anatomy and someone offers us that we should be talking an entirely other language in which anatomy will not be referred to .

 

[Trisonics]

islam doesnt stop us from these things.

yes, but muslims do. The point was to grow a more secular society in Muslim countries. Something, muslims are not very comfortable with.

 

[jdme]

i learned maths from "chakarwartee"
so did my dad...islam doesnt stop us from these things.

There is this book and then there is what average Muslim follows. Which one is the Islam and who is to be blamed? If people don't follow Islam, so are there no Muslims in this world?

 

[muse]

The key element missing here is secularism. A secular society leads to exchange of ideas and practices between religions. I personally have a friend who is the only kid. His father was a bus driver but he turned out to be the univ topper and the reason both he and his dad openly state is that they have a small family and a "hindu" math teacher when he was in 9th grade who changed the way he looked at math.

A muslim kid with high performing hindu friends will be driven to work harder.

The best school k-10 ICSE in Bangalore is Sophia High School, a school with strict Christian values and run by Catholic nuns. This school is number one and both hindus and muslims line up in the 100s when applications are given out.

Excellent - but how would you explain the fact that learning, science and innovation flourished during the period from the advent of islam to the 13 century - did they have secularism then??(you will be surprised by the amount of intellectual freedom them as compared to now) What the heck does intellectual environment, what do ideas and specualtion (conjectures and refutations) have to do with the expansion of learning or innovation?