No aircraft engines to Pak, please

[Contrarian]

You wish!!!

Now this is the right place to use the word "underestimating". Dude things have been alot different now. well u can try now. Perhaps you may also forget the 2 migs that PA downed during Kargil conflict, that was after the very incident you've mentioned above, lessons are meant to be learnt from mistakes. I dont wanna mock myself or urself to start our own conflict here, but trust me i couldnt resist, just as you....

Back to topic, any updates on thunder's engine?

Lol, you caught my sentiments mate, 'couldnt resist' is the word!

Anyways, those two MiGs were not shot by Pakistan. One of them landed back to the base, and im forgetting about the other one. In anycase, they had some technical engine failure. Let me chk it out.

Well anyway i know things change, but if still the foxbats were to go over Pak territory, which plane could counter it??

BACK on Thunder,
im posting this article posted on PDF,

China-Pakistan Joint Fighter-17 project needs Russian engines - Putin tending to take side with India

China-Pakistan Joint Fighter-17 project needs Russian engines - Putin tending to take side with India
Dec. 24, 2006

India is quietly pursuing Moscow not to provide aircraft engines for the China-Pakistan Joint Fighter-17 project. Indian Air Force will have to down these fighters sooner or later. Pakistan has a roughly a cyclical pattern in attacking India. Whenever a military ruler has to rise to power, it must demonstrate to the Pakistani Military how string he is against India. Hatred against India is critical for controlling Pakistan Armed Forces. The Kargil war brought Musharraf into power.

The Thunder project, a 50:50 joint venture between Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, will commence in March 2007 with an initial production of 16 aircraft for Islamabad.

Russians are finally realizing that India may shift its gear completely towards American fighter aircrafts. That can be devastating for Russian manufacturers as India emerges as world’s biggest arms buyer.

Russians initially said that China will have to take their permission before exporting the engines to Pakistan. Now they realize China and Pakistan already planned a process that will avoid such requirements for permission.

India will take the matter with Russian President Putin next month when he is in New Delhi for Indian Republic Day Parade.

- Indiadaily

So are we sure of the fate of the engine ??

 

[melb4aust]

Lol, you caught my sentiments mate, 'couldnt resist' is the word!

Anyways, those two MiGs were not shot by Pakistan. One of them landed back to the base, and im forgetting about the other one. In anycase, they had some technical engine failure. Let me chk it out.

Right!!!
You are gonna believe what ur sources say and i am gonna stick with mine ones.

Well anyway i know things change, but if still the foxbats were to go over Pak territory, which plane could counter it??.

They are already retired from indian inventory

BACK on Thunder,
im posting this article posted on PDF,


So are we sure of the fate of the engine ??

Its an indian source, so there's no chance of having it in Pakistan's favour.

 

[Contrarian]

Right!!!
You are gonna believe what ur sources say and i am gonna stick with mine ones.

CCool. though i will provide sources, one of hte planes defo made it back to base, ie was not shot down, am forgetting about the other one.

They are already retired from indian inventory

You said, times have changed now, so im saying WHAT IF MiG 25's were to go over Pakistan again now, what would they encouner that was not there before which could take the Foxbats down. I know they are retired. We have satellites to do that job now, no need for planes, i was saying what if.

Its an indian source, so there's no chance of having it in Pakistan's favour.

Thats not true,it is merely meant to report details, if Russia indeed sells the engines, the Indian media cant change facts. But in anycase, i expect some crazy deals and negotiations to happen when Putin visits here in this month. I expect the future of the engines will be revealed then.

 

[vnomad]

Just answer this, was MiG-25 designed and built for reconnaissance? If not, then YES it’s a dud.

Yes it was built with a recon as well as intercept role in mind.

As far as reconnaissance goes, one can find better images at Google Earth. Conclusion, it’s a DUD.

Google Earth in the 80s and 90s?

And your point is?

No point really. If you aren't bothered by IAF planes buzzing the capital, what point can I make.

Are you going to gloat like a little boy, the next time an Indian satellite passes over Pakistani capital? Your lives have to be empty and extremely pathetic that you guys are gloating over one lucky flight.

I wasn't just one flight. The PAF would never even have detected the MiG-25 if the pilot hadn't decided to give the PAF a wake-up call. The MiG-25 deliberately went supersonic over the capital.

It was one lucky and insignificant flight. The Indians didn’t have the balls to repeat the sneaky flight again.

With exactly what would the PAF have downed the Foxbat? After the 1997 incident, Pakistan's foreign minister Gohar Ayub Khan said the PAF did not have aircraft to intercept aircraft at altitudes greater than 65,000 feet. The Foxbat can fly upto 90,000 feet.

Thank you for the advice. However do you think my vocabulary is any worst then vnomad who calls me a ‘troll’, or keyseroze who calls me a ‘troll’, or sword who calls me a ‘juvenile delinquent’, or bull who calls me a ‘troll’, 'gay'

Might have something to do with your sparkling personality.

Big deal! So have PAF recce flights had been going on for years....

Evidence please.

Any idea why the glorious duds are retired now?

After serving for 25 years in the IAF the Foxbats have reached the end of their operational life. So, they are being retired. India has spy satellites now, so the Foxbat has reduced utility now.

Perhaps you may also forget the 2 migs that PA downed during Kargil conflict, that was after the very incident you've mentioned above, lessons are meant to be learnt from mistakes.

One MiG-27 suffered engine failure and went down. The pilot in the supporting MiG-21 went out of his way to locate the MiG-27 pilot and his plane was hit by a shoulder fired missile downing it.

The other aircraft was a Canberra I believe. The plane was hit but the pilot managed to fly the limping aircraft back to base.

Both incidents occured in the first three days of the conflict. All lessons were learned. The IAF flew 550 sorties in the conflict of which close to 100 were around the target and there were no further casualties.

 

[blain2]

Yeah. they tried once!, they sent the Atlantique, and guess what? It was SHOT DOWN.

It was retired cuz it was old now, served hell of a lot and beautifully, IAF has conducted so many recce flights over Pakistan. Only in one did Pakistan get to know, when the pilot sonic boomed the Pak capital! And now we have many many satellites to do the job. We dont need planes anymore.

Pakistan celebrates even the days that it lost to India as victory days! Such is the propaganda!, so you cant blame us, if one of our planes goes over you capital, and THIS time creates a sonic boom! to remind you all of the danger lurking and goes back without seeing any of PAF pilots even trying to fight the plane. Then...

Malay, this is a silly point. So the Mig-25 came and did what? Need I remind you about all of the buzzing that PAF did in the face of the IAF with F-104 starfighters?? What crucial or superb ELINT/Photo recon capability did the Foxbat posses that Pakistan was unable to neutralize? It was simply a matter of sticking your thumb at Pakistan and aside from that, nothing else.

When things were equal in terms of aircraft, PAF shot down an IAF Canberra in 59 or so with a Sabre which intruded into the Pakistani territory. So not sure what this fuss is all about wrt Mig-25 creating sonic-boom over Pakistani airspace?

 

[blain2]

One MiG-27 suffered engine failure and went down. The pilot in the supporting MiG-21 went out of his way to locate the MiG-27 pilot and his plane was hit by a shoulder fired missile downing it.

The other aircraft was a Canberra I believe. The plane was hit but the pilot managed to fly the limping aircraft back to base.

Both incidents occured in the first three days of the conflict. All lessons were learned. The IAF flew 550 sorties in the conflict of which close to 100 were around the target and there were no further casualties.

PA claims both IAF aircraft were shot down by MANPADs and included the Mig-21 and 27. I am sure the Indian side has its own story but what matters is what hit the ground and where it hit it. Pakistani side sticks to its story about the use of MANPADs against both aircraft. A heli was also downed with the MANPAD system.

 

[vnomad]

So not sure what this fuss is all about wrt Mig-25 creating sonic-boom over Pakistani airspace?

If it was just Pakistani airspace, nonchalance is merited. But, this is the capital we're talking about. How can you have a foreign aircraft over the nation's capital. That said you're right about the utility of the mission. Beyond the shock statement it probably didn't serve much practical purpose(I say probably because the MiG-25 were as secretive a squadron as they come. Every foxbat mission was highly classified).

 

[vnomad]

PA claims both IAF aircraft were shot down by MANPADs and included the Mig-21 and 27. I am sure the Indian side has its own story but what matters is what hit the ground and where it hit it. Pakistani side sticks to its story about the use of MANPADs against both aircraft. A heli was also downed with the MANPAD system.

The MiG-27 pilot Fl. Lt. Nachiketa is alive and its his account I stated. He's very clear about the fact that both aircraft were flying well outside the MANPAD's envelope.

 

[Muradk]

If it was just Pakistani airspace, nonchalance is merited. But, this is the capital we're talking about. How can you have a foreign aircraft over the nation's capital. That said you're right about the utility of the mission. Beyond the shock statement it probably didn't serve much practical purpose(I say probably because the MiG-25 were as secretive a squadron as they come. Every foxbat mission was highly classified).

Highly classified but they still managed to give us a sonic boom.

 

[Mercenary]

So whats the latest on the JF-17 Engines?

Is Pakistan getting them or what?

 

[blain2]

The MiG-27 pilot Fl. Lt. Nachiketa is alive and its his account I stated. He's very clear about the fact that both aircraft were flying well outside the MANPAD's envelope.

He's very clear about the fact that both aircraft were flying well outside the MANPAD's envelope.

Yet he got shot down by a MANPADS himself and there is no doubt about that.
So not sure if I'd take his word for it.
AAD guys have a totally different version of the story and I tend to believe their account since they actually brought two aircraft down.

 

[blain2]

If it was just Pakistani airspace, nonchalance is merited. But, this is the capital we're talking about. How can you have a foreign aircraft over the nation's capital. That said you're right about the utility of the mission. Beyond the shock statement it probably didn't serve much practical purpose(I say probably because the MiG-25 were as secretive a squadron as they come. Every foxbat mission was highly classified).

Yes so what is so different about this than what EAF Foxbats did over Tel-Aviv without allowing the Israeli F-4s to intercept them? I mean what is this mean feat of arms that is being claimed here by flying faster and higher with an aircraft made by someone else?

In 1973 Israelis monitored an Egyptian MiG-25 Foxbat-B reportedly doing Mach 3.2 between two ground stations, whilst evading an F-4 interceptor, the news reaching US intelligence. The high speed was caused by its engines experiencing "runaway rpm" overspeeding and upon landing they had to be replaced. The canopy had blistered during the flight.

http://www.aviationforum.org/forums/...&threadid=5429

 

[Owais]

So whats the latest on the JF-17 Engines?

Is Pakistan getting them or what?

pakistan will be getting Improved RD-93 with initial batches.

 

[vnomad]

Highly classified but they still managed to give us a sonic boom.

Yet he got shot down by a MANPADS himself and there is no doubt about that.

It was Sq. Ldr. Ahuja who got shot with a MANPAD.

AAD guys have a totally different version of the story and I tend to believe their account since they actually brought two aircraft down.

What do you suppose the MiG-21 was doing at such a low altitude? Its not a ground attack aircraft.

Yes so what is so different about this than what EAF Foxbats did over Tel-Aviv without allowing the Israeli F-4s to intercept them? I mean what is this mean feat of arms that is being claimed here by flying faster and higher with an aircraft made by someone else?

We know what happened next. Israelis weren't going to take things lying down. This incident was prior to the 1973 war I believe.

 

[Munir]

If Israel can say that those foreign Mig25 were hostile and shoot them down then why should Indians be allowed (even their Ghandi that was murdered by his own people flew over Islamabad). Great way to show respect... Stupid. What if we flew over Dilli and gave some sonic boooms... Then it would be terrorism...