Next generation pakistan army tank to be unveiled in IDEAS2018

[LKJ86]

Isn't this possible that Pakistan negotiate with China over TOT for VT-4 and produce an assembly line in Pakistan for at least 300 tanks. And name it as Al Khalid II????



???

I am more interested in the TOT of VT-4's engine. VT-4, ZTZ-99A, and ZTZ-96B all use the 150HB engines.

 

[waz]

No, there is a lot to be gained from Ukraine I know they have huge issues at the moment but the tech they have developed is what Pakistan is seeking. It's better to get them to work in Pakistan and help Pakistan or buy it outright from them.

They already had their chance and blew it, Pakistan can’t wait around for them. Buying out right isn’t an option either, as that has not been offered.

 

[Path-Finder]

They already had their chance and blew it, Pakistan can’t wait around for them. Buying out right isn’t an option either, as that has not been offered.

I am talking about items that you attack to the tank, ok forget it.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

They already had their chance and blew it, Pakistan can’t wait around for them. Buying out right isn’t an option either, as that has not been offered.

how?

 

[Amigator]

 

[cabatli_53]

And who'll attack them?



We want Altay's T-3 unmanned, sensor integration turret and Altay's electronics, Akkor APS for AK-2.

Otherwise Indian armor will slice through the border and we'd have to nuke them.

Bro, You know No tank can survive in a battlefield where large quantity of latest generation ATGM were purchased from many different source. It is not important what is the name of tank or How heavy It is. In this aspect, Some tech areas could provide superiority against hostile units.

• Hybrid armor blocks (Composite, Explosive/Non-explosive Reactive) for 360 degree armor protection
• Latest generation situation awareness thermals/ IIR sensors 360 degree
• Battlefield Management System
• Early warning sensors (LWR, MMW radars)
• Advanced image processing, tracking, identification and first shot kill probability
• Active protection radar/sensor and munitions 360 degree

Tanks in current technological climate equipped with poor/inferior sensors will be just a graveyard for personal. Turkey has sent both M-60T Sabra and Leo-2A4 tanks to real combat environment in Syria and We took serious lessons when we faced with serious ATGM strikes simultaneously. Those lessons shaped the further configuration of Altay with additional protection requirement. (Although Altay T1 is equipped with the latest generation sensors, 3rd generation thermals and capable armor blocks) If Altay’s current configuration was extremely perfect, There wouldn’t have been needed to develop T2 and T3 variants. That is the reason Altay project has been delayed to shape new configurations to put them into deal. It is also agreed Akkor APS to become standart for all configuration so The prices of new generation of Altay tanks will exceed 10 million $. I mean Being cheaper sounds nice on peace times but is never an advantage in real combat environment anymore, since The order of new tech climate obliges countries to develop more advanced tracked vehicles with superior sensors, The prices is inevitably risen. The countries which couldn't update their infrastructure/inventory or couldn’t measure the strength with quantity instead of quality will sacrifice their future with blood. That is the reason We should cooperate more on those sub-technological fields more than before. Alleging those like "Mine is superior, It is enough, It will serve perfect" is the easiest part of this story but Noone can guarantee What will be the consequences of those "superior" things when they are sent to an active field against an advanced enemy having vast of ATGM, attack helicopters, tanks...etc

Akkor Pulat against RPG, Konkurs and Kornet ATGM

 

[Kompromat]

• You've reflected my concerns.
• This is exactly why im worried.
• Pakistan should be working closely with Turkey to develop a T-3 variant of Al-Khalid vehicle.
• We could just buy Altay but you probably already are aware of Pakistani terrain and unavoidable weight class restrictions. Heavy tanks will get bogged down and slaughtered.

Bro, You know No tank can survive in a battlefield where large quantity of latest generation ATGM were purchased from many different source. It is not important what is the name of tank or How heavy It is. In this aspect, Some tech areas could provide superiority against hostile units.

• Hybrid armor blocks (Composite, Explosive/Non-explosive Reactive) for 360 degree armor protection
• Latest generation situation awareness thermals/ IIR sensors 360 degree
• Battlefield Management System
• Early warning sensors (LWR, MMW radars)
• Advanced image processing, tracking, identification and first shot kill probability
• Active protection radar/sensor and munitions 360 degree

Tanks in current technological climate equipped with poor/inferior sensors will be just a graveyard for personal. Turkey has sent both M-60T Sabra and Leo-2A4 tanks to real combat environment in Syria and We took serious lessons when we faced serious ATGM strikes simultaneously. That is the reason Altay project has been separated into T1, T2 and T3 configurations for more improvement and It is agreed that Akkor APS became standart for all configuration so The prices of new generation Altay tanks will exceed 10 million $. I mean Cheaper sounds nice on peace times but never be an advantage in real combat environment anymore, since The order of new tech climate obliges countries to develop more advanced tracked vehicles with superior sensors which is a factor to rise the prices. The countries who couldn't update their infrastructure/inventory or measure the strength with quantity instead of quality will sacrifice their future with blood. That is the reason We should cooperate more on those sub-technological fields more than before. Claiming "Mine is superior, It is enough, It will serve perfect" is the easiest part of this story but Noone can guarantee What will be the consequences of those "superior" things when they are sent to an active field against an advanced enemy having vast of ATGM, attack helicopters, tanks...etc

Akkor Pulat against RPG, Konkurs and Kornet ATGM

 

[帅的一匹]

bro, what is this picture means?

 

[Amigator]

bro, what is this picture means?

"Picture" means this movie clip about VT4? if yes, I like this tank so I posted it's promo video. It's interior is very comfortable for crew to operate and info screens are good too and much in resemblance with M1A1 Abrams tank.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Sorry... in layman world, this is still a pipe dream. I work in this field day in and out. trust me, it is decades away. we get these bubbles of breakthru. For deep learning, you cannot certifiy with mathematical proofs

Hi @denel
Absolutely correct, I completely agree with you. I myself have worked on "unsupervised" reinforcement learning based systems--which are many leagues more advanced than data driven approaches. I feel, there are areas where RL can be effectively integrated and then there are those areas where we'd have to modify the RL structure to suit the problem. The problem with that guy's writing was that he seems to be talking very superficially under various false assumptions vis-a-vis how AI is being utilized. I highly doubt if has ever coded any problem and implemented GD(Gradient Descent)/PSO (Particle Swarm Optimization) based data driven NN in any language.
In such a scenario, what is more important are differential games and how one can optimize his/her goals given the dynamics of war.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Regardless of what kind of tank we get we can turn Pakistan military into A.I. based warfare force using mathematically driven systems engineering implemented on off the shelf components. There are a lot of things we can do as technical ability to do so already exist within Pakistan.


For tank and other vehicle/soldier based warfare, we must develop situation aware distributed attack capability. This can be done initially using tanks only but later other vehicles and ultimately soldiers carrying anti-tank weapons. Nobody has it and we will have an upper hand always. The initiator always leads. I won’t say much but distributed attack means here simultaneously attacking vast regions by letting A.I. suggested maneuvers and targeting that maximizes damages while maintains safety margins.

Though it would mean adding more computing power in each vehicle and tank, but I have the feelings we can reduce nodal computations (e.g. each vehicle is node) to such a degree, that commercially available (and relatively cheap) data and image processing chips can be used. We will need to find a way to reduce information sharing data amount since it must be communicated in real time and in highly communication degrading battlefield environment (i.e. due to possible jamming attempts). It is possible to reduce data on some portions of the network and increase on others using A.I. driven self-organizing at-hock sensor networks such that minimum information transfer constraints are maintained or we at least have sufficiently fast processors to compensate using time-delay models.

For large scale cyber-physical systems general hardware/software verification via current logic based approaches is not possible. In plain English, mathematical proofs that all will work as required cannot be mathematically rigorously derived in general but only for specific situations). Therefore for such a cyber-physical system it would be impossible to confirm mathematically hardware-software verification, still we can definitely carry out verification with sufficient fidelity (i.e. simulation assisted models) so that even if a war last for a thousand years, we can cause massive damage with high probability, every day. Here verification means, our ability to be confident that the large scale system designed for such warfare will not suffer from unwanted or unexpected behavior, under all possible scenarios (i.e. unexpected mode of operations, glitches, data clogging etc.).

We would still need to separately process the received data to dynamically update evolution of enemy forces and create human-machine cognition of what is going on in the battle field not just for commander but for the A.I. system as well so that can keep getting smarter. That actually can be done with existing data-based A.I. (i.e. machine learning approaches).

A.I. despite its fancy name, won’t be that hard though it would take around 2 to 3 years to build basic integrated A.I. that has at one had sufficient structure to absorb ever increasing information complexity (i.e. can estimate/represent, and infer/predict dynamics of war assets, people, environmental and information based interaction of sufficiently complex nature) and yet can discriminate at a resolution where actions is most appropriate (i.e. based on the situation, and limited computational and other resources, should it focus on information disruption, feeding false information or bomb a certain vehicle cluster for maximum effect with minimum cost and so on). Current machine learning approaches can be scaled up to create such a system.


Pakistan already has people with expertise in data-driven A.I. My definition is as follows: Data driven A.I. is a kind of artificial intelligence that derives its structure and/or modifies itself in response to received data and then uses this self-modification to predict, classify/discriminate, control and or influence something out there.

Hi @Allahistan
This message is in response to your remark about the kind of AI work happening in India. Before I begin writing my answer, let me tell you that I have not only worked on nonlinear functional analysis and incorporated very mathematically rigorous RL based control for nonlinear MIMO systems with unknown dynamics. You certainly have no idea of what is happening on this side of the border.
Perhaps you do not know but Indians have contributed a lot in reinforcement learning based approximate optimal control for nonlinear continuous time systems. I am talking about folks like Dr Bhasin, V. Kamalapurkar and their seminal paper:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.661.51&rep=rep1&type=pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...=A_novel_actor_critic_identifier_architec.pdf
I just hope you know what "automatica" is. And the systems I have described are not data driven! Their stability proofs are way more rigorous than you can comprehend utilizing many sub disciplines of mathematics ranging from Lyapunov's stability theory, inequalities, LMIs.
Also, you can approximate a given nonlinear function as long as it is continuous. Here are some examples where non smooth friction functions were approximated by NN:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1000141

 

[YeBeWarned]

• You've reflected my concerns.
• This is exactly why im worried.
• Pakistan should be working closely with Turkey to develop a T-3 variant of Al-Khalid vehicle.
• We could just buy Altay but you probably already are aware of Pakistani terrain and unavoidable weight class restrictions. Heavy tanks will get bogged down and slaughtered.

From the looks of it , PA is not putting all their eggs in tank vs tank battles , recent interest in UCAV and gunships are signal towards a change in strategy . IA will not be just facing our armor but a collective firepower from land and air .

 

[denel]

Hi @Allahistan
This message is in response to your remark about the kind of AI work happening in India. Before I begin writing my answer, let me tell you that I have not only worked on nonlinear functional analysis and incorporated very mathematically rigorous RL based control for nonlinear MIMO systems with unknown dynamics. You certainly have no idea of what is happening on this side of the border.
Perhaps you do not know but Indians have contributed a lot in reinforcement learning based approximate optimal control for nonlinear continuous time systems. I am talking about folks like Dr Bhasin, V. Kamalapurkar and their seminal paper:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.661.51&rep=rep1&type=pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/30760397/auto13.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1544442137&Signature=uvoGyDCpLzfSGVHzSWN0Uc6n70Y=&response-content-disposition=inline; filename=A_novel_actor_critic_identifier_architec.pdf
I just hope you know what "automatica" is. And the systems I have described are not data driven! Their stability proofs are way more rigorous than you can comprehend utilizing many sub disciplines of mathematics ranging from Lyapunov's stability theory, inequalities, LMIs.
Also, you can approximate a given nonlinear function as long as it is continuous. Here are some examples where non smooth friction functions were approximated by NN:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1000141

Well put and respectly acknowledged on their contributions which have been huge. Alas, universities on the other side appear not to be focusing on learning but stamping out graduates.

 

[Kompromat]

So it was a false rumor after all.

 

[Quwa]

So it was a false rumor after all.

IMHO ... not sure if Haider MBT is needed. HIT has under-used capacity for AK and, in the end, it might be a better idea to push HIT to its limit via a single next-gen MBT platform.