News Flash: JFT carries out a successful WS-13 Flight test.

[MastanKhan]

Understand that there is a difference between capacity and capability.

do we know how to make a diesel engine . Yes we sure do
are we capable of making an internal combustion engine . Yes we are

Should we make those engines ? depends on if it is feasible $$ wise.

A simple litmus test now: If I ask you make a motor car today from scratch will you do it ?
OR
is it better to ask Toyota to setup a plant like theirs and teach my people to run it AND I protect you as pakistani business with tax relaxation.


Moral of the story:
Our Dilemma is not so much lack of education or of know how;
our Dilemma is we can't make any thing because it is available already cheaper than our own cost because the trade minister makes money from it. Our leaders and government forget to protect us because they are always in bed with tonight's customer

If now you fail to support this initiative, you are advocating ignorance and slavery.
The very same type which we have had for 63 years and it makes you as much a culprit as them.

All I have been fighting for is a CHANCE for once let the know how come in; let the factory come in; and train your own people.

If this article can not explain this point of view, frankly I will not try to explain again.


Hi,

The difference between capacity and capability---there is nothing mysterious about it---that is what it is all about---It is like TO BE OR NOT TO BE----.

No---we don't know how to make a diesel engine---it is all talk---. We know the principals of how to make the diesel---but that doesn't mean that by default we know the the manufacturing process---.

Anybody can talk about climbing the K 2---but how many have done it is a different question---. That is what I am trying to say---engine building is like a climb to the K 2----the most difficult climb in mountaineering---only a select few have done---.

You guys make it sound like it is a piece of cake---like a bowl of pudding---.

If on a scale of 1 to 100 level of difficulty----if building a nuc is 1----then manufacturing a diesel is like at a scale of 25---and a jet engine at a difficulty level of 50---and a missile like the shaheens and ghauris at .5 level of dificulty---.

Our dillema is a lack of education and a lack of know-how. Just because the factory comes in---doesnot mean that you will have the know how as to how to build it---.

Currenly there is no engine building company that delivers an engine in a CKD condition---engines are always delivered in an assembled and sealed condition by the engine manufacturer---bench tested and ready to go---no engine manufacturer sells you an engine in parts and bits.

Secondly---you can buy the design---but you cannot copy it---.

Remember what happened to Datsun---they stole the design of a 6 cylinder GM engine for their Datsun 240 Z---the car was in production for 10 years with that engine in the form of 240/260/280Z and 28 ZX---gm had a lawsuit---which they won and Datsun had to shut down its door---file for bankruptcy and come out as Nissan.

A Billion or 5 Billons---what difference does it make---bottomline is that what is the application going to be---where would you go to get the design---what resource is available to get a projecct like this started---where are you going to get your engineers.

Engine building is not like building a computer board---the science of moving parts is different to that of the science of stationery fixed parts.

You have to see the development in your daily life---you have to see some examples of ingenuity from your engineers---you have to see some examples of design and function in your transportation side---like in buses---rickshaws--wagons----. Strangely----there is nothing that pops up and SAYS---this is my pakistani design---this is an eye opener---give me an oppurtunity and I can do something---.

Neccessity is the mother of all inventions. Pakistan should have and must have produced small engines of world class quality by now.

Small projects are like a stepping stone to bigger projects. The experience that you gain from your failures and successes in small projects leads to your successes in bigger projects.

You have to learn to take BABY STEPS at first to walk---.

 

[BATMAN]

^^
Some side notes:

Sir Jee,
Future is electric motor.. and China will beat the **** out of worlds *** in future.
I admire the engines and their development but with new advances in solid state devices and microprocessor it face competition.

All what JFT needs is an engine which last next 10 years after we'll have motor driven stealth JFT.
No wonder Americans already have one.

For instance, this car can beat Ferrari any time.
Home | Tesla Motors

or
BBC News - Zephyr solar plane flies 7 days non-stop

or
http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/sls-amg/mercedes-benz-sls-amg-with-electric-drive-official-details-revealed/

 

[Sinnerman108]

MK, there is some thing wrong here ... you are not a Ramadhan man.
Fasting is getting to you;

The difference between capacity and capability---there is nothing mysterious about it---that is what it is all about---It is like TO BE OR NOT TO BE----.

No---we don't know how to make a diesel engine---it is all talk---. We know the principals of how to make the diesel---but that doesn't mean that by default we know the the manufacturing process---

THAT was precisely my point; we don't know the manufacturing process and if some one would set it up for me and let me learn on their factory; wouldn't it be just great ?

If on a scale of 1 to 100 level of difficulty----if building a nuc is 1----then manufacturing a diesel is like at a scale of 25---and a jet engine at a difficulty level of 50---and a missile like the shaheens and ghauris at .5 level of dificulty---

Obviously what I call a missile is not what you call a missile.

Our dillema is a lack of education and a lack of know-how. Just because the factory comes in---doesnot mean that you will have the know how as to how to build it---.

You have been away from the last decade and a half worth of Pakistani Engineers.

Currenly there is no engine building company that delivers an engine in a CKD condition---engines are always delivered in an assembled and sealed condition by the engine manufacturer---bench tested and ready to go---no engine manufacturer sells you an engine in parts and bits.

Secondly---you can buy the design---but you cannot copy it---.

Japan buys fighter air crafts from USA; you are proposing they are not capable ?
or may be it is just not worth to do it locally.

You must try to understand how and why industry makes progress;
India for example had to do with Fiat Ambassador for a very long time; just to protect it's own local industry.
Did they start making cars the first day ? NO
it took them years AFTER this protection and still they are competing.

Neccessity is the mother of all inventions. Pakistan should have and must have produced small engines of world class quality by now.

Small projects are like a stepping stone to bigger projects. The experience that you gain from your failures and successes in small projects leads to your successes in bigger projects.

You have to learn to take BABY STEPS at first to walk-

I propose the same; I say we adopt the China model of RnD, Replicate and deploy !

This is the best model in the world.

 

[Sinnerman108]

SELF DELETE

 

[no_koadsheding_plz]

yes i agree to some extent with MastanKhan
we absolutely have no company that makes any engine even for bike.. how shamefull is it that our annual sales of bikes is more then 1 million and we cant an engine for that....

leave the engine aside we cannot even make a simple device like a carburettor.. NOT a single company in pakistan is making it..
another shamefull fack is that the name of sohrab is synonomous with cycle yet it proudly says in its one sheet manual that its girariz are imported from china to give u a more stroner cycle.....

if these situations continue things would not be good... a lot of people compare any development to india in order to boast its country ... but if these differences in devlopment cointinue people will surely say that we should reunite with india... most people say so even now.......

 

[Quwa]

Dear Mark Sien
brother it is not about 1bn or 5!!

look, let us discuss it in a differenct manner.
suppose we have allocated 1Bn funds for PAF development program. what do you suggest will be wise, to invest in an engine program or investing in avionics program.

experties in radars and avionics will help in upgradation of old fleets to next level, radar experties can be benificial in UAV programs, Helicopter upgradations, Navy, Airforce upgradation, perhaps may also see application in future procurement provided PAF want to stick to indegenious avionics even on imported plane.

on other side, no doubt indegenious engines would also be a big plus but, what would you or anyone other as knowledgeable as you in this field will suggest? will upgarding engines of say, older Mirages be more of an advancement then upgrading of avionices??

if we have fund we must spend these on things with mulitiple applications in use years to come. as far as i can think, development of avoinics, Radars, research in composite materials are of much more importance then going for engines.
even in engines, indegenious development of Tank engines, engines of APCs and other military vehicles will be far far more beneficial then investment in R&D of Air craft engine.

for me, it is very simple, it is, first things first

regards!

I'll put it this way...will we force ourselves to start developing engines when we are 100% sanctioned with absolutely NO foreign help, like Iran? Hence wait till its absolutely too late and we're in desperation to try something, and end up rushing and fumbling on the way? Or should we begin investing when we do have stable relations with other countries, when it isn't a huge deal to transfer certain technology to Pakistan, when we do have the time and comfort to develop and test our turbofan. Its called keeping maximum contingency...we will not be a respected power unless and until we start thinking along these lines.

 

[trident2010]

I've been following the discussions in this thread and saw very good arguments regarding the development of engine in Pakistan. I myself think that pakistan should work on making a engine prototype. Someone was talking about setting up laboratories and manufacturing plants. However, for small prototype I think govt. can use facilities from universities and different engineering colleges. Use materials lab from one university and software programmers from another. Try to distribute R&D work with existing universities and lab. Once the basic R&D is complete then govt. can release more funds to universities to setup new facilities for further research. In this way universties can keep doing the research with new students which will increase the skilled work force along with providing advanced R&D for prototype manufacturing. It is slow process but surely gives the results.

ISRO,DRDO etc sucessfully does the same with many projects in India with IISc, IITs and other Universities and get its research done in comparetively less money. Something similar could be done in Pakistan too. Sooner you start better it will be.

 

[sergente rehan]

Very interesting thread (although it turned into another discussion regardless it's orignal topic!)

In first place it's a good news that a chinese engine is beign tested, even if it will take few years before it's full induction on platforms like JF-17 but atleast it gives us oppurtunity to depend less on other foreign engines like russian RD-93 in the future.

As for Pakistan manufactring indigenously jet engines, i think we must take a first step now as mentioned by some other members if we really want to have this capacity in the future. Atleast trying to make some small rocket motors for missiles and engines for UAV's. It will be a milestone for us in this field bcz i don't think it's so simple to produce these small engines.

We have to open specific schools and accademies which offer professional diploma's in electric, electronic, mecchanical and other tecnical fields. So far as i know we are lacking in these as compared to west. Good study system form the base for any field rather it be tecnical, scientific etc. We have to improve our over all system.....we need a change starting from the Gov. to our sytem!

 

[Sinnerman108]

As for Pakistan manufactring indigenously jet engines, i think we must take a first step now as mentioned by some other members if we really want to have this capacity in the future. Atleast trying to make some small rocket motors for missiles and engines for UAV's. It will be a milestone for us in this field bcz i don't think it's so simple to produce these small engine

We already have the technology for this purpose.
The cruise missile uses a jet while the bigger missiles use solid as well as liquid fuels.

leave the engine aside we cannot even make a simple device like a carburettor.. NOT a single company in pakistan is making it..
another shamefull fack is that the name of sohrab is synonomous with cycle yet it proudly says in its one sheet manual that its girariz are imported from china to give u a more stroner cycle.....

The reason is ECONOMICS !
As I have mentioned before it is our government, which has sold us out.
If foreign raw material is cheaper in Pakistan than Pakistani raw material ... well
then SHAME on the government.

Remember ADAM motors, proficient motors , etc.
These were Pakistani initiatives and they all failed.. try guessing why.

 

[Materialistic]

I've been following the discussions in this thread and saw very good arguments regarding the development of engine in Pakistan. I myself think that pakistan should work on making a engine prototype. Someone was talking about setting up laboratories and manufacturing plants. However, for small prototype I think govt. can use facilities from universities and different engineering colleges. Use materials lab from one university and software programmers from another. Try to distribute R&D work with existing universities and lab. Once the basic R&D is complete then govt. can release more funds to universities to setup new facilities for further research. In this way universties can keep doing the research with new students which will increase the skilled work force along with providing advanced R&D for prototype manufacturing. It is slow process but surely gives the results.

ISRO,DRDO etc sucessfully does the same with many projects in India with IISc, IITs and other Universities and get its research done in comparetively less money. Something similar could be done in Pakistan too. Sooner you start better it will be.

I agree with your post, this is indeed the best and the most cost effective way to start building both the product and the cream of engineers!!

Gov should invest in different universities and fund their R&D programs which will in return bring technologies and sums for this aren't going to be huge.

Even if put our budget on a minor diet just for an year we can manage funds for this, and I think we don't need to do that In first place. And later if these funds are directed to R&D programs in Mechanical as well as Electrical engineering field then we can easily have our hands on some good technology.

Since it covers all Electronical, mechanical and IT skills (already available) are basically needed for manufacturing anything from everyday electronic appliances, cars, ships, subs to jet fighters & rockets!! -- along with lots of finance to start production

 

[Materialistic]

The reason is ECONOMICS !
As I have mentioned before it is our government, which has sold us out.
If foreign raw material is cheaper in Pakistan than Pakistani raw material ... well
then SHAME on the government.

Remember ADAM motors, proficient motors , etc.
These were Pakistani initiatives and they all failed.. try guessing why.

Sadly, our government has always been running after kick-backs and thats what our infant industry can't provide with.

 

[Donatello]

Talking about diesel engines and turbines...not many countries of the world can do that.


Japanese, Germans and USA all who have fought and learned through wars.....excelled science and technology when need arose.

Sometimes it's cheaper to buy than produce.

Just like USA manufacturing is going all the way to the east.

We are a developing nation and one with not high per capita income. Even if we made engines for cars, not every Pakistani would afford one. This is not USA where each family has a car or 2 or 3.

We should be grateful we have civil engineering marvels like Motorways and Dams.

Societies take time to develop.

 

[MastanKhan]

MK, there is some thing wrong here ... you are not a Ramadhan man.
Fasting is getting to you;



THAT was precisely my point; we don't know the manufacturing process and if some one would set it up for me and let me learn on their factory; wouldn't it be just great ?



Obviously what I call a missile is not what you call a missile.



You have been away from the last decade and a half worth of Pakistani Engineers.



Japan buys fighter air crafts from USA; you are proposing they are not capable ?
or may be it is just not worth to do it locally.

You must try to understand how and why industry makes progress;
India for example had to do with Fiat Ambassador for a very long time; just to protect it's own local industry.
Did they start making cars the first day ? NO
it took them years AFTER this protection and still they are competing.



I propose the same; I say we adopt the China model of RnD, Replicate and deploy !

This is the best model in the world.

Hi,

First of all please get the disrespect feature out of the discussion.

Engine is a SACRED COW---no pun intended---nobody allows you acces to the innards of their engine manufacturing and assembly.

Just because there is an auto manufacturing plant installed---it doesnot mean that it is engine manufacturing plant.

Replicate china's model anddeploy---what kind of statememnt is that---I believe sir that you are getting carried away----and as for as japan---you never heard about the problems that japan had with it fighter jet engine awhile ago.

I understand how industry makes progress---I understand it very well---. Need, desire, ability, honesty, capability, resource, research, funding, ingenuity, free thinking and application amongst other things.

You see----people who are habitually stealing technology never develop any respect for creating that technology---india and china are not comparable examples---their resources and usage is 100 to a 1000 times more than ours.

Now what was that about the missile----missiles are missile---different forms and functions---.

When did you get to that pleateau that your difinitions become different than others?

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

First of all please get the disrespect feature out of the discussion.

Engine is a SACRED COW---no pun intended---nobody allows you acces to the innards of their engine manufacturing and assembly.

Just because there is an auto manufacturing plant installed---it doesnot mean that it is engine manufacturing plant.

Replicate china's model anddeploy---what kind of statememnt is that---I believe sir that you are getting carried away----and as for as japan---you never heard about the problems that japan had with it fighter jet engine awhile ago.

I understand how industry makes progress---I understand it very well---. Need, desire, ability, honesty, capability, resource, research, funding, ingenuity, free thinking and application amongst other things.

You see----people who are habitually stealing technology never develop any respect for creating that technology---india and china are not comparable examples---their resources and usage is 100 to a 1000 times more than ours.

Now what was that about the missile----missiles are missile---different forms and functions---.

When did you get to that pleateau that your difinitions become different than others?

At one time or another every one stole technology. Americans and Russians from the Germans, Japanese from the Americans, the Chinese from the Japanese. No shame in it. About 10 years there were 3 motorcycle brands in Pakistan Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha with only one making engines i.e. Honda today we have almost 40 with almost 95% local content because Chinese were able to reverse engineer the 70CC honda technology and one Pakistani company bought the technology and starting supplying engines blocks and other die cast parts to anyone who could pay turning the motorcyle industry into a cottage industry similar to the electrical fan manufacturers of the old days. The result - local brands cost half the price of the old Japanese brands. It has already happend in the tractor business where Dewan group tried to sell a tractors under a different brand simply by buying parts from vendors supplying to Millat Tractors. The same thing could potentially happen to the car business it is just a matter of time and economics. Whoever sets up a plant to economically produce engine blocks, cylinder heads for small size engines has it in the bag and we could potentially see small cars as a cottage industry. The key in case of cars would be who gets brand recognition first.

 

[Donatello]

What does Yamaha have got to do with the WS-13?

Please stay on track, as it gets difficult to follow whats going on.