News Flash: JFT carries out a successful WS-13 Flight test.

[Quwa]

Pakistan's methodology is understanding the "hows and whys" through collaboration and joint-ventures with foreign partners. This applies at both the public level (PAC & AWC) and at the private level. The reason why Pakistan hasn't reached the level of say manufacturing its own reactors, undertaking whole indigenous programs, etc, is because of a lack of funding. Lack of funding = lack of risk-taking/initiatives = lack of sophisticated results.

The nuclear program was a dire necessity, but it was split into two parallel programs: First a heavily invested uranium line and second, a pilot plutonium program. It is in recent years that the more advanced plutonium program is gaining steam, and will eventually reach the full acceleration point. But why not reactors? Read through PakDef, you'll see that Pakistan has the means to undertake reactor research, development and manufacture - but it lacks the funds necessary to set up the practical aspect of producing expertise, technology, testing, etc.

Now let me be frank...Pakistan is NOT an inherently poor country, but rather, it is one that is wealthy in many ways. If it taxes the politicians, feudal landlords and big big generals - it'll get a lot of revenue. If it reforms agriculture (land reform, distribution regulation, high yields and exports to lucrative markets), it'll earn a lot. And so on...

We're not dumb people, but we sure act like them (leaders and educated middle class alike)...

 

[Sinnerman108]

Mark's analysis has to be the simplest and most compact analysis ever and yet 100% true.
Pakistan is one of the richest countries in the world; yet we are drenched in poverty.

 

[Arsalan]

Pakistan's methodology is understanding the "hows and whys" through collaboration and joint-ventures with foreign partners. This applies at both the public level (PAC & AWC) and at the private level. The reason why Pakistan hasn't reached the level of say manufacturing its own reactors, undertaking whole indigenous programs, etc, is because of a lack of funding. Lack of funding = lack of risk-taking/initiatives = lack of sophisticated results.

The nuclear program was a dire necessity, but it was split into two parallel programs: First a heavily invested uranium line and second, a pilot plutonium program. It is in recent years that the more advanced plutonium program is gaining steam, and will eventually reach the full acceleration point. But why not reactors? Read through PakDef, you'll see that Pakistan has the means to undertake reactor research, development and manufacture - but it lacks the funds necessary to set up the practical aspect of producing expertise, technology, testing, etc.

Now let me be frank...Pakistan is NOT an inherently poor country, but rather, it is one that is wealthy in many ways. If it taxes the politicians, feudal landlords and big big generals - it'll get a lot of revenue. If it reforms agriculture (land reform, distribution regulation, high yields and exports to lucrative markets), it'll earn a lot. And so on...

We're not dumb people, but we sure act like them (leaders and educated middle class alike)...

spot on sir,
my father is a mechanical engineer.
i know through him and other contact that is that a team was set up that was to study machines required to build nuclear reactor. the the celection were made, covers were selected under which the production was to proceed but at eleventh hour the decesions were reverted due to shortages of funds.
this have happened atleast two time that i know of.

there was also an unbeleiveable report that the factory (same are, Gov Owned) id developing nuclear reactor that might be seen equiping the Agosta or some heavier sub but it eventually also died as silently as it had lived..

the problem is that we have to produced all military/defense hardward in government owned inductries, this means, the tax payers money is used.
in developmed countires, there are private groups that are involved in such productions.
in our part of the world, the rich would prefer to invest in skyscrapers abroad rather then setting up inductires in Pakistan...

regards!

 

[Rajput Warrior]

Wat are the chances of an emerging private defence industry in the future?

 

[Quwa]

Exactly. Another interesting bit...as early as 1949-1950, the Pakistani government itself studied the idea of an indigenous defence industry. Advisor to the then Ministry of Defence, Mr. Laiq Ali began negotiating an agreement with Lockheed Company to domestically assemble and gradually manufacture jet-fighters in Pakistan. Seriously, Pakistan was and still is one of a kind...without having the resources and prefabricated industrial foundations of India, it still managed to conceive an indigenous aerospace industry within 2-3 years of independence.

Of course, the British scuttled the deal with Lockheed, just to maintain their stranglehold and monopoly over the country. But JF-17 was LONG overdue...and so was almost every other program except the nuclear one. In fact, had things run our way since 1947, the nuclear program would've been the crown jewel behind many gold bars of industrial manufacturing, advanced R&D, etc. For example, had we started a turbojet program in the early 1980s and at snail's pace developed, tested and matured it for 20-25 years before finally using it in service with - say JF-17 - then GREAT. Because to date, variants of GE404 are still in use and pitched for fighters such as Super Hornet and Gripen NG.

Wat are the chances of an emerging private defence industry in the future?

Its already there and it will grow. However, not in the sense of U.S. or European defence industries, but more so in line with Israel or South Africa. For example, there is a huge domestic market (military) in terms of avionics, electronic warfare/counter measures, weapon-systems (missiles, bombs, etc), sensor fusion/cross-integration services, networking, etc in Pakistan. Basically think subsystems, and there are many Pakistani private companies involved in such R&D and marketing. This has been happening since the 1980s when PAF contracted programing work to a private Pakistani firm at the time...it has only grown in recent years. Further prospects include pitching export-level avionics and ECM/EW for use on JF-17.

But it hasn't reached the level of massive industrial manufacturing, such as producing large vehicles, aircrafts or big ships. It might depending on the market. If tomorrow the Pakistani government required 100~150 light helicopters for use by police, hospitals, public works, coast guard, etc, then we could see a private-public partnership in manufacturing said choppers. Certainly so if the military/paramilitaries wanted another 100 of their own. If coast guard and maritime security agency required light/medium fast boats, then some Pakistani investors might partner up with foreign Turkish firms to try and meet the requirement. If Frontier Corps/paramilitaries required a special modular armored vehicle, then we might see something private there too, and so on. For now, demand is centered around support and subsystems...hence there is a lot of activity and growth there...and to an extent in private security (CCTV tech, guards, etc).

Setting up a potential market of this scale requires a lot of vision...and we know Pakistan lacks it badly...but for what its worth, many in the middle are learning it from the likes of Turkey in recent years. In 10-15 years we might see such vision arise in Pakistan too.

 

[Danishwer]

Exactly. Another interesting bit...as early as 1949-1950, the Pakistani government itself studied the idea of an indigenous defence industry. Advisor to the then Ministry of Defence, Mr. Laiq Ali began negotiating an agreement with Lockheed Company to domestically assemble and gradually manufacture jet-fighters in Pakistan. Seriously, Pakistan was and still is one of a kind...without having the resources and prefabricated industrial foundations of India, it still managed to conceive an indigenous aerospace industry within 2-3 years of independence.



I was read that this program powered by quaid e azam and after his death it was go to cold storage.

 

[Nahraf]

Exactly. Another interesting bit...as early as 1949-1950, the Pakistani government itself studied the idea of an indigenous defence industry. Advisor to the then Ministry of Defence, Mr. Laiq Ali began negotiating an agreement with Lockheed Company to domestically assemble and gradually manufacture jet-fighters in Pakistan. I was read that this program powered by quaid e azam and after his death it was go to cold storage.

There were people of vision who struggled for independence of Pakistan. Since then we have had people with small vision and large ego running the country.

 

[Quwa]

I was read that this program powered by quaid e azam and after his death it was go to cold storage.

The Shaheen Foundation's PAF book (1947-1988) says Laiq Ali was in charge, and he had tried it several times in the early 1950s.

 

[muse]

For 250 aircraft---pak doesnot need an engine manufacturing plant

I think the issue is whether or not Pakistan should have the capablity, the infrastructure, the know how - to build the engines.

Most will agree wirth you that flying under the radar, so to speak, is what may be required for the time being - but Pakistan needs this capablity. Without it, it's like making making a gun without a firing mechanism.

 

[hataf]

I think the issue is whether or not Pakistan should have the capablity, the infrastructure, the know how - to build the engines.

Most will agree wirth you that flying under the radar, so to speak, is what may be required for the time being - but Pakistan needs this capablity. Without it, it's like making making a gun without a firing mechanism.

U man

Some one thinks like me . . . . . . .

I have same thinking but could not put it in words. .. . .

Again

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

So---it would cost pakistan about 5 billion dollars to build one fighter aircraft engine of their own and that is not guaranteed either---so please---good engineers of this board---please discuss where would that engine take off from---for what and how many aircraft that engine would be used on----what is the life span of that engine---how would you recuperate the costs.

Please keep it in mind---pakistan still doesnot have the capability of building a gas auto engine that was built by the americans and german in the 1920's---secondly---pak doesnot have any capability of building turbine engines like the ones the americans had in the same time frame of 1920's.

It has been 100 years---and not one engine of any kind---not even a motorcycle engine of 50cc---.

So--is it out of a habbit of talking big---or talking without any information---or talking without knowing.

THERE IS NO FLYING UNDER THE RADAR OVER HERE---EITHER YOU ARE AN ENGINE BUILDER OR YOU ARE NOT---SECONDLY---WHO WOULD YOU GO TO GET THE BLUE PRINTS FOR A DESIGN FOR YOUR ENGINE---WHICH COUNTRY.

Now---please don't give me this---that we have our own design or we will design our own.

 

[muse]

MK

I'm not an engineer, but I think you are not giving enough credit to WILL - Russia developed it's jet engines from Rolls Royce engines transferred to it in the late 40's (I believe).

If it is or becomes a policy matter, it will happen -- the same thing happened with nuclear technology -- Also, if a genuine Private-Public partnership is constructed such that the development of this capablity becomes "profitable" I think we can see good progress in this field.

Who will provide the blue prints? I don't know right now, but I would again point to previous attempts at developing capablities - Pakistan is not witghout friends and profit and collaboration are strong motivations.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well the solution can be by starting from smaller ones for UAVs & Cruise Missiles and with joint collaboration do research, make a base of engineers who can do the future research and hopefully in future if financial position is feasible enough, start making our own ones.

Something has to be done at this stage, a step which will establish the base for this industry in Pakistan, we can start from small and gradually take it to a bigger level.

And as said before, no need to reinvent the wheel, we can work on already reinvented wheels and make things from out of it.

Joint collaboration is the best solution, first make a base as it takes time and money, once the base is set, we can start small things for ours UAVs & Cruise Missiles, and then go for more complicated things in few years time, try to get licensed production of few items, earn revenues, and reinvest in our own engine making industry.

 

[Arsalan]

I think the issue is whether or not Pakistan should have the capablity, the infrastructure, the know how - to build the engines.

Most will agree wirth you that flying under the radar, so to speak, is what may be required for the time being - but Pakistan needs this capablity. Without it, it's like making making a gun without a firing mechanism.

very true for long run...
if PAF is set to keep moving in fighter jet production, the engine engineering will have to be an integral part of it!

i am talking about a case where we will see, new PAC built aircraft after the 250 JFT. either it be a modrenized JFT in a different league all together with twin engines, stealthier design features or may even be somethign new altogether.
i hope this happens and PAF persue this idea.
but,
what are the chances that what we are wishing is actually going to happen?

i mean what is probability of PAC designing a new 4~4.5 generation plane after induction of Block IV and Blk V JFTs, the FC-20 and with all there intrest they are showing in Chines 5th generation plane?

regards!

 

[khurasaan1]

Well the solution can be by starting from smaller ones for UAVs & Cruise Missiles and with joint collaboration do research, make a base of engineers who can do the future research and hopefully in future if financial position is feasible enough, start making our own ones.

Something has to be done at this stage, a step which will establish the base for this industry in Pakistan, we can start from small and gradually take it to a bigger level.

And as said before, no need to reinvent the wheel, we can work on already reinvented wheels and make things from out of it.

Joint collaboration is the best solution, first make a base as it takes time and money, once the base is set, we can start small things for ours UAVs & Cruise Missiles, and then go for more complicated things in few years time, try to get licensed production of few items, earn revenues, and reinvest in our own engine making industry.

Alhamdolillah I guess bro our industry is at this level now to start building or developing its fighter sytems with some help from china if needed...