New U.S. Stealth Jet Can’t Hide From Russian Radar

[500]

Not, it is not an imaginary future engine.

The WS-13 has been flying on a FC-1 prototype since 2010. The WS-13B is only an upgrade to it and not a completely new engine. 2 times WS-13Bs will give the J-31 20,000kg of thrust.

LOL. Once again: currently F-35 has more thrust than J-31. You think J-31 can be upgraded? Maybe. But why F-35 cant be upgraded as well?

2018 or 2020 is not much difference

Enough difference.

Rafale first came into service in 2001 and F-35 is not even in service now. If the French wanted to, the M-88 could easily have been delivering 10,000kg of thrust each now.

Another woulda coulda shoulda.

Anyway, this conversation is going round in circles and here are actual facts about F-35:

1. Unable to super-cruise - this will mean it will be handicapped as the F-35 will need to use afterburners to move through space quickly and it this would mean that it would become a big infra-red magnet for heat-seeking missiles.

J-31 has weaker engines so it cant supercruise either.

2. Not very manoeuvrable - again will give it a disadvantage in close in dog-fighting. I know we have all-aspect missiles but there will be some situations where a more manoeuvrable fighter will have an advantage.

Much more maneuverable than J-31 thanks to higher T/W, superior aerodynamics and single engine.

3. Compromised stealth. The US made a deliberate decision here for both operational and strategic reasons. Since it was all all-in fighter it could not be shaped as stealthily as F-22, and also they did not want any other country to get access to a fighter as stealthy as any they had.

I dont see any "compromise" in F-35 (I can clearly see it in PAK FA for example). F-35s coating will be used on F-22! With American 40 years experience in stealth F-35 will be surely more stealthy than any non American planes.

Only area where F-35 is likely to be better than J-31 is in radar and electronics. Is this enough to make up for all the deficiencies that I have listed above?

In all other fields F-35 also has an edge.

 

[MOHSENAM]

US ...
Good people Dumb Zionist Regime

 

[gambit]

Ive personally never seen his credentials have you?

That is the beauty of anonymous forum discussions, it forces people to focus on the substance of the arguments instead of the personalities.

And hes been calling anyone in this thread who disagrees with him , trolls.

Not anyone. Only those who refuses to discuss in a rational manner.

He was also very disrespecful to an an acredited fighter jet designer Sprey, he didnt sems to have qualms about being disrespectfl of him or his legacy.

How was I disrespectful to Sprey ? By pointing out where Sprey is wrong ?

Again, all in order to project his agenda.

Which is ?

We are all the sme here and we should all be held to these standards.

Good...Then let us know when you are ready to discuss the subject in a rational manner. Have the intellectual honesty to admit when you are wrong. Can you do that ?

3. Compromised stealth.

There is no such thing as 'compromised stealth'. The fact that you persists in using this phrasing tells me that you have no interests in discussing this subject in a rational manner, just like the other troll.

 

[Nike]

Why bringing such crappy Aircraft like J-20 and J-31 who never been launching their missile from their pylon or weapon bay?

 

[notgoodenough]

Intellectual honestly on pdf? Have your read the mindless prooaganda on here. Everybody sticks to their party line. You know that the f35 was a money pit from the start. If you can admit to that ilk take yiu seriously and we can have an honest discussion but if youre going to stick to your party line for political or ideological reasons. Then how can i take your comments as sincere?

That is the beauty of anonymous forum discussions, it forces people to focus on the substance of the arguments instead of the personalities.


Not anyone. Only those who refuses to discuss in a rational manner.


How was I disrespectful to Sprey ? By pointing out where Sprey is wrong ?


Which is ?


Good...Then let us know when you are ready to discuss the subject in a rational manner. Have the intellectual honesty to admit when you are wrong. Can you do that ?


There is no such thing as 'compromised stealth'. The fact that you persists in using this phrasing tells me that you have no interests in discussing this subject in a rational manner, just like the other troll.

 

[UKBengali]

LOL. Once again: currently F-35 has more thrust than J-31. You think J-31 can be upgraded? Maybe. But why F-35 cant be upgraded as well?

F-35 ready for service around 2016 and J-31 around 2018. By 2018 the WS-13B should be ready with 10,000kgs of thrust.

Is that not simple enough?

J-31 has weaker engines so it cant supercruise either.

See above. WS-13B will allow J-31 to suprecruise. 20,000kg is more than enough power, when combined with the smoother airframe to allow supercruise.

Much more maneuverable than J-31 thanks to higher T/W, superior aerodynamics and single engine.

You are not serious here? F-22 has twin engines and is far more manoeuvrable than F-35

I dont see any "compromise" in F-35 (I can clearly see it in PAK FA for example). F-35s coating will be used on F-22! With American 40 years experience in stealth F-35 will be surely more stealthy than any non American planes.

F-22 is RCS around a factor of 10 less. The F-35 is a decade newer and is less stealthier.

 

[500]

F-35 ready for service around 2016 and J-31 around 2018. By 2018 the WS-13B should be ready with 10,000kgs of thrust.

Fact: currently F-35 has more thrust than J-31.

When or if your fantasy WS-13B will appear F-35 will get F-135-200 engine with 21,000 kg thrust.

You are not serious here? F-22 has twin engines and is far more manoeuvrable than F-35

Single engine F-16 is more maneuverable than twin engine F-18.

F-22 is RCS around a factor of 10 less. The F-35 is a decade newer and is less stealthier.

The RCS of F-22 and F-35 was never released.

 

[gambit]

Intellectual honestly on pdf?

Sure there are, among the mature people, which we can see you do not belong in this group.

Have you posed a technical question befitting a doubtful but fair minded person ? No.

You name dropped but the sorry part is that the name you dropped -- Pierre Sprey -- was found to be inadequate in his criticism.

Sprey still believes in the visual combat situation as the sole arena for any air superiority fighter.

The Last Ace - Mark Bowden - The Atlantic

Cesar Rodriguez would challenge Sprey on that. Rodriguez was an F-15 combat pilot who shot down an opponent with a missile from far beyond what bullets could travel and what the human eyes can discern. Sprey never had to put his life into trust. Rodriguez had to. Are YOU going to tell this forum that Rodriguez have an 'agenda' or 'politically motivated' or 'toeing the party line' if he disagree with Sprey ?

So as far as intellectual honesty go, you have none.

 

[UKBengali]

Fact: currently F-35 has more thrust than J-31.

When or if your fantasy WS-13B will appear F-35 will get F-135-200 engine with 21,000 kg thrust..

Both the F-35 and J-31 are likely to be in service till the 2040s as front line fighters.

China is sure to catch up in engine technology, quicker in terms of just matching the T/W ratio, with the US sometime between now and then.

The F-35 current engine has T/W ratio of 11:1 while the RD-33 has only 8:1

Now assuming a catch up of at least the T/W ratio of engines between China and the US, then using 11/8 * 8,300 gives the J-31 airframe the theoretical limitation of 11,400 * 2 which is 22,800 kg of thrust. You can clearly see that the J-31 airframe can take engines of far greater thrust than the single-engined F-35 airframe can. Now, don't say that the Chinese cannot at least catch up in T/W ratio as the Russians had engines in the 1980s for their fighters with comparable T/W ratios, but the US engines were and are to this day far more reliable than the Russian ones

The RCS of F-22 and F-35 was never released.

The actual numbers was not released but the US has said officially that the F-22 is "marble-sized" and the F-35 is "golf-ball sized". It is common knowledge that 80% of stealth is shaping, so even with better stealth coatings J-31 would beat F-35 by a fair margin in RCS.

 

[500]

Both the F-35 and J-31 are likely to be in service till the 2040s as front line fighters.

China is sure to catch up in engine technology, quicker in terms of just matching the T/W ratio, with the US sometime between now and then.

The F-35 current engine has T/W ratio of 11:1 while the RD-33 has only 8:1

Now assuming a catch up of at least the T/W ratio of engines between China and the US, then using 11/8 * 8,300 gives the J-31 airframe the theoretical limitation of 11,400 * 2 which is 22,800 kg of thrust. You can clearly see that the J-31 airframe can take engines of far greater thrust than the single-engined F-35 airframe can. Now, don't say that the Chinese cannot at least catch up in T/W ratio as the Russians had engines in the 1980s for their fighters with comparable T/W ratios, but the US engines were and are to this day far more reliable than the Russian ones

You can increase F-35 engine weight. Whats the problem?

The actual numbers was not released but the US has said officially that the F-22 is "marble-sized" and the F-35 is "golf-ball sized". It is common knowledge that 80% of stealth is shaping, so even with better stealth coatings J-31 would beat F-35 by a fair margin in RCS.

When we talk about marble and golf, its obviously a front RCS. But F-35 has DSI intakes with lower RCS than F-22. F-35 has better coating than F-22. So why it should have less RCS?

And non US jets wont come even close to F-22 or F-35. Maybe in 2040.

 

[UKBengali]

You can increase F-35 engine weight. Whats the problem?

You are clutching at straws here. Just making an engine heavier won't increase it's T/W ratio as otherwise the F-16 could now be having 20,000 kg thrust engines.

Apart from the added safety of having two engines, the other reason why a lot of fighters go for two engines is for the higher T/W ratio. That is the reason why the best fighters ever designed like Su-27/F-15 and F-22 all have 2 engines

When we talk about marble and golf, its obviously a front RCS. But F-35 has DSI intakes with lower RCS than F-22. F-35 has better coating than F-22. So why it should have less RCS?

What counts in fighter-to-fighter battles is frontal RCS. We have concluded that the F-35 does not have the lowest possible RCS, and hence it will be at a disadvantage against a fighter designed with the lowest possible RCS .

The only thing that would save the F-35 against the J-31 is if somehow China can never get decent engine for the plane - it will do that, the only questions is whether it will be this decade and next. I have high hopes that the soon to be world's richest country will be able to overcome it's current shortcoming in this area, since the much poorer Russians solved this problem way back in the 1980s.

 

[500]

You are clutching at straws here. Just making an engine heavier won't increase it's T/W ratio

Making engine heavier with same T/W ratio I will increase its thrust.

as otherwise the F-16 could now be having 20,000 kg thrust engines.

F-16 block 10 had 10,800 kg thrust.
F-16 block 60 has 14,740 kg thrust.

Thats 36% boost.

Apart from the added safety of having two engines, the other reason why a lot of fighters go for two engines is for the higher T/W ratio.

1000th time: F-16 with single engine has more TW ratio than twin engine F-18 from same era and same country.

That is the reason why the best fighters ever designed like Su-27/F-15 and F-22 all have 2 engines

The best selling 5 gen is F-16.

What counts in fighter-to-fighter battles is frontal RCS. We have concluded that the F-35 does not have the lowest possible RCS, and hence it will be at a disadvantage against a fighter designed with the lowest possible RCS .

On contrary. F-35 has DSI intakes instead regular on F-22 which are more stealthy.
F-35 has better coating than F-22.

So F-35 frontal RCS should be better.

 

[gambit]

What counts in fighter-to-fighter battles is frontal RCS. We have concluded that the F-35 does not have the lowest possible RCS, and hence it will be at a disadvantage against a fighter designed with the lowest possible RCS .

Based upon what ? I want to see hard data.

The only thing that would save the F-35 against the J-31 is if somehow China can never get decent engine for the plane - it will do that, the only questions is whether it will be this decade and next. I have high hopes that the soon to be world's richest country will be able to overcome it's current shortcoming in this area, since the much poorer Russians solved this problem way back in the 1980s.

We have are information about the F-35 than we do for the J-31. So unless you have direct access to the Chinese engineers who works on the J-31, anything you say about it is sheer fantasy.

 

[surya kiran]

@UKBengali

Locating a plane and locking it are two different things. Correct me if I am wrong @gambit @Pfpilot

So assume, you are able to see it, can you lock your missile on to it and launch and guide it in?

 

[UKBengali]

@UKBengali

Locating a plane and locking it are two different things. Correct me if I am wrong @gambit

True that.

However, just knowing the general location of a plane makes it much more vulnerable to being shot down. You can use targeting radars on the approximate position of the plane and fire missiles once you have locked onto the plane.