New AH-1Zs are going to be stationed in Multan, Army tender notice reveals

[Mav3rick]

A future conflict there will see the Cobras pitted against the Apaches for the first time and everyone around the world would be watching to see which of these two US helos come on top

I think the continued refusal of US to sell us those Apache's is proof enough which Gunship is superior.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I think the continued refusal of US to sell us those Apache's is proof enough which Gunship is superior.

Wonder why the USMC is then buying them instead of the Apaches...

 

[Mav3rick]

Wonder why the USMC is then buying them instead of the Apaches...

I don't know where you got the info that you posted above, but is it not a fact that Vipers are only in use of US forces and Pakistan while other major players have procured Apache's? And why has the US continuously refused to sell Apache's to Pakistan? And then there is the price difference. You can procure 2-3 AH-1Z for the price of a single AH-64D. And so on......

Besides, realistically, the US is only going to use its helicopters against targets that have no aerial defense or have very minimum air defense which could be negligible. In case of Pakistan and India, neither can gain air superiority over the other.......the former due to lack of technology and later due to odds of operating inside enemy territory where enemy has multiple layers of defense.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I don't know where you got the info that you posted above, but is it not a fact that Vipers are only in use of US forces and Pakistan while other major players have procured Apache's? And why has the US continuously refused to sell Apache's to Pakistan? And then there is the price difference. You can procure 2-3 AH-1Z for the price of a single AH-64D. And so on......

Besides, realistically, the US is only going to use its helicopters against targets that have no aerial defense or have very minimum air defense which could be negligible. In case of Pakistan and India, neither can gain air superiority over the other.......the former due to lack of technology and later due to odds of operating inside enemy territory where enemy has multiple layers of defense.

Could you clarify what information are you referring to that I posted? If it is the part about USMC clearly favoring Cobras over Apaches? Well that much is easily available on the web. Not sure what else are you talking about.

However, now that you have mentioned it twice, can you show point to me where and WHEN (Time frames are important) Pakistan asked for and was refused Apaches?

As for the costs, where are you getting your numbers from? AH-64Ds is around twice the prices of AH-1Z but AH-64E are just about the same, that is around $30M.

EDIT: I wanted to add to this that during the Iran-Iraq war, Cobras and Hinds did in fact engage each other at various occasions and the likelihood of that happening is there in India-Pak scenario as well since both sides will be fielding these choppers in support of their armor.

 

[Mav3rick]

Could you clarify what information are you referring to that I posted? If it is the part about USMC clearly favoring Cobras over Apaches? Well that much is easily available on the web. Not sure what else are you talking about.

However, now that you have mentioned it twice, can you show point to me where and WHEN (Time frames are important) Pakistan asked for and was refused Apaches?

As for the costs, where are you getting your numbers from? AH-64Ds is around twice the prices of AH-1Z but AH-64E are just about the same, that is around $30M.

EDIT: I wanted to add to this that during the Iran-Iraq war, Cobras and Hinds did in fact engage each other at various occasions and the likelihood of that happening is there in India-Pak scenario as well since both sides will be fielding these choppers in support of their armor.

Yes, I was indeed referring to information that USMC favors Cobras over Apache.

As for the news, this should be sufficient https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/america-to-sell-apaches-to-pakistan.325133/

As for the price, AH-64D Longbow is the choice of Apache that USMC prefers which is almost 4-5 times the price of Ah-1 and over 2 times the price of AH-1Z.

It is a different matter for Cobras to be engaging with Hinds, which were watered down versions of the Hinds in use with Russian forces, but when faced with a much larger fleet of Apaches.......well, I hope you get the picture.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Just few handful machines not worth that much excitement

5,000 horses and a man carrying RPG is better offence / defence then few handful of what ever this thing is cobra or cobress

1 Chopper might have some silly 10-20 rockets and that is it

People get excited with few items as if a massive tactical change as taken place

• Z-10 and T129 is the future and way forward
• Complemented with MI-35 due to higher reliability of parts

 

[GriffinsRule]

Yes, I was indeed referring to information that USMC favors Cobras over Apache.

As for the price, AH-64D Longbow is the choice of Apache that USMC prefers which is almost 4-5 times the price of Ah-1 and over 2 times the price of AH-1Z.

Yes, so why did you ask where I was getting my information about the USMC ... am I wrong or do you have something to correct/add to it. There must be a reason for them to prefer one over the latter.

For the price, don't change your stance now ... we were always talking about AH-1Zs ... not run of the mill older model Cobras. The Longbow radar makes the prices exponentially more ... but it is not 3 times the price as you initially claimed.

It is a different matter for Cobras to be engaging with Hinds, which were watered down versions of the Hinds in use with Russian forces, but when faced with a much larger fleet of Apaches.......well, I hope you get the picture.

Again, I don't see what "watered down" version have to do with anything. Both Iraqi Mi-25 Hinds and AH-1J were of the same era and capability more or less. In Pak-India scenario, both sides's attack helicopters will be working in similar confined areas and is every possibility they will get a chance to engage each other as well.

Just went to the link you posted as your source of Pakistan asking and then being denied the Apache ... didn't see any mention of a reliable information there. Care to try again with a better citation? Am curious as to when Pakistan requested these helos (and if it was over and over again that we kept getting a No as an answer.)

 

[Mav3rick]

Yes, so why did you ask where I was getting my information about the USMC ... am I wrong or do you have something to correct/add to it. There must be a reason for them to prefer one over the latter.

For the price, don't change your stance now ... we were always talking about AH-1Zs ... not run of the mill older model Cobras. The Longbow radar makes the prices exponentially more ... but it is not 3 times the price as you initially claimed.

I said that I still don't have any concrete evidence that USMC prefers AH-1Z or Cobras over AH-64D. Take out the disparity in cost and AH-64D outweighs AH-1Z in everything and would be the only Gunship in use of USMC. Price is the reason that AH-1Z is even considered by US forces because they can buy 1000 of AH-1Z for the price of 450 AH-64D! How hard is that to understand?

And read my post in the entire context, not in bits and pieces.

Again, I don't see what "watered down" version have to do with anything. Both Iraqi Mi-25 Hinds and AH-1J were of the same era and capability more or less. In Pak-India scenario, both sides's attack helicopters will be working in similar confined areas and is every possibility they will get a chance to engage each other as well.

Just went to the link you posted as your source of Pakistan asking and then being denied the Apache ... didn't see any mention of a reliable information there. Care to try again with a better citation? Am curious as to when Pakistan requested these helos (and if it was over and over again that we kept getting a No as an answer.)

It is a well known fact that Russia delivered watered down or inferior specs on military hardware that it delivered outside of Russian forces. Despite that, what has Hinds vs Cobras got to do with this discussion, it is explicitly irrelevant.

In Pakistan vs India scenario, our handful of AH-1Z's will be facing off with 3-4 times more in quantity and superior quality AH-64's! What is then the logic of buying AH-1Z's except for anti-terrorist operations?

And mate, honestly, either take my word for it or counter it with some research of your own. Dig deep and you will find that all pursuit by Pakistan to acquire Apache's were blunted by US. Hell dude, just compare the 2 platforms.

 

[Basel]

So PAF will launch offensive inside India using AH-1Z Cobras........I wonder what evasive maneuvers the Cobras will employ when they face AH-64E Apache's in Indian arsenal!



Are you serious?

Is that what we will use for strike missions??? How will these survive against SU-30 Super MKI's and Rafale on CAP let alone integrated SAM based layered defense network of India and their superior AWACS?

I m surprised by your post, did not expected that lack of knowledge.

 

[Mav3rick]

1Z and 64E are not fighter aircraft you dumbass they won't go head to head,they are for infantry support and anti armour role.
Even if they go head to head 1Z is better off with its aim-9 which has better range and seeker than stinger which is fielded by the 64E.

Perhaps a lesson in ethics and communication is needed more than an education in the dynamics of discussion. But, since I do not have time or patience for the former, later only will have to do.

When we speak about cars going head to head, it usually means either a drag or a general race. The context of discussion is equally as important as the matter itself. I am also amused by your choice of words, first to abuse the point that I was deliberating on and then to state the exact same argument to try and make your case. Nevertheless, since both platforms are capable of carrying A2A weapons, they can actually even engage each other.

I m surprised by your post, did not expected that lack of knowledge.

Wasn't lack of knowledge, it was frustration more than anything else. Frustration that we chose AH-1Z instead of insisting on AH-64's and then on the quantity of Helos. Basically, frustration because 13 or so of our AH-1Z's would be negligible in an actual conflict.

 

[544_delta]

IMO, each other air forces will be pitched against those
their job will be to hunt tanks not fight each other

Theoretically though, couldnt AH1z take out Apache with those sidewinders?

 

[Mav3rick]

This is a thread to talk about AH-1Z being stationed at multan not a thread to let out your frustration,open another thread or bang your head to a wall whatever you like is upto you.
Anyways
I read somewher that Pakistan did indeed Requested Apaches but was denied,then it later asked for Super Cobra got denied,just recently requested to repair cobra engines which was somewhat denied.
AH-1z is where our luck got struck and we should be happy.

This is your 2nd post addressed to me and neither warrants a response. Kindly do not quote me any more as you will not get a reply.

 

[Basel]

Perhaps a lesson in ethics and communication is needed more than an education in the dynamics of discussion. But, since I do not have time or patience for the former, later only will have to do.

When we speak about cars going head to head, it usually means either a drag or a general race. The context of discussion is equally as important as the matter itself. I am also amused by your choice of words, first to abuse the point that I was deliberating on and then to state the exact same argument to try and make your case. Nevertheless, since both platforms are capable of carrying A2A weapons, they can actually even engage each other.



Wasn't lack of knowledge, it was frustration more than anything else. Frustration that we chose AH-1Z instead of insisting on AH-64's and then on the quantity of Helos. Basically, frustration because 13 or so of our AH-1Z's would be negligible in an actual conflict.

There is a reason US Marines choose AH-1Z over AH-64s, they dont choose lesser capable weapons as they are the spearhead of US assault forces since WW-2.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Are you serious?

Is that what we will use for strike missions??? How will these survive against SU-30 Super MKI's and Rafale on CAP let alone integrated SAM based layered defense network of India and their superior AWACS?

that is exactly my concern .. for that very purpose i want to see J-16 in PAF for deep strike capabilities .

 

[ziaulislam]

that is exactly my concern .. for that very purpose i want to see J-16 in PAF for deep strike capabilities .

well you need to answer this question, whether 36 j11 are better at surviving 260 su 30s+ sam network or 150 jf-17 with smart weapons(4 tones each)

if you think 36 j11(~3-4 billion dollars) are better than 150 jf-17s than i wont disagree with you

yes it would make the force more one dimensional but what the sweden figured out was that denying army air superiority is much easier with 100s of indigenuos fighters than buying few expensive external fighters that will be lost very quickly in war