Nauman Ali Has Over 3,000 Viper Flight Hours, Was In Red Flag 2010.

[OCguy]

USA

has always double crossed us against India even though they were fully aware of our insecurities against India.

That isn't what double-cross means . But we knew for a decade that our #1 enemy was being harbored, and blaming a Pakistani citizen wouldn't ever cross my mind.

 

[DEFCON12]

So cento....no double cross.
1971 no double cross
Afghan war finished. No double cross
I could go on all day.
Some pakistani's need to wake up as well

They didn't double cross us in 1971. The US and UK both sent carrier groups but as the carriers reached the bay of Bengal, the USSR sent its own ships with nukes that would have started a nuclear war if US' or UK's carriers entered the Bay. Of course that's not what's told to us in history books. In fact, the USSR had a big role to play in 1971 Bangla separation. A KGB defector claimed that Mukthi 'Fauj' was trained by his agency. So, we had our revenge by breaking up USSR.

In fact, Nixon at the time of the 1971 war called Indira Gandhi a 'bitch' too. Lol at that. The US works with India because India is too big and the money Indian economy can provide is too much to ignore. When analyzing the US, always remember that we've fought wars as their allies, while the Indians have always been on the sideline. Also keep in mind that the US embassy in Islamabad is one of the biggest in the world and that Pak is the US' only outpost close enough to China. India has a larger border with China, but isn't as strategically close to the US.

The US also sucks up to India because of US' strategy of containing China. In a hypothetical scenario, should the US try to close off China's access to the sea in China's East, the US requires India's help to keep China engaged at China's Southern border. Now analyze this with the goof that the IAF made of itself in its recent confrontation with Pakistan and you'll see why the US doesn't isn't confident in its engagements with India.

Finally, before you mislead yourself and others, keep in mind that China also didn't engage India on India's northern border in the 1971 war because the mountains were covered with snow. So technically the Chinese also 'double-crossed' us according to your terminology.

 

[zulu]

USA

has always double crossed us against India even though they were fully aware of our insecurities against India.

Read and research what he is saying if u bother about past reading,check present is this time USA jump to india's help we all were expecting??? politics and diplomacy is all game of interest as Henry Kissinger put it — 'America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests'' so no hard feeling.when u got some time read RN: The Memoirs of Richard Nixon.Why we Pakistanis goes nut like Iranians whenever we hear USA or Isreal name ? not healthy sign

 

[SQ8]

Repeating that won't make it true. But you know it isnt.

PAF doesn't take expert 3,000hr pilot's with a decade of experience and switch platforms with modified missles suddenly.

Red-Flag F-16 Stud who was active on US F-16 forums.

Most US kills in Vietnam and GW1 were Top Gun and Red flag ace grads.
That goes back to the history of air combat and aces.

It usually is the more experienced and skilled ones that continue to be the ones taking the others down.

 

[Liquidmetal]

I'm an American who is proud to have played a part in a defensive victory for Pakistan, using a US jet, US missle, by a US Red-Flag alumni pilot.

I am aware that Pakistanis are not the biggest fans of Americans, but this is still cool to see.

Actually you are wrong. You need to read up on your history, we have admired the USA and have been allies since inception but due to the Zionist-anti Islam lobby and the pro-Indian american media/intelligentsia the USA applied unfair sanctions during crucial periods and you should be able to understand how that could result in many Pakistan developing a major trust deficit, I mean you guys took $700M for F16s, sanctioned them and did not return the money either. For a poor country that was a major kick in the nuts. So you figure why the USA is not seen as a friend.

 

[OCguy]

Actually you are wrong. You need to read up on your history, we have admired the USA and have been allies since inception but due to the Zionist-anti Islam lobby and the pro-Indian american media/intelligentsia the USA applied unfair sanctions during crucial periods and you should be able to understand how that could result in many Pakistan developing a major trust deficit, I mean you guys took $700M for F16s, sanctioned them and did not return the money either. For a poor country that was a major kick in the nuts. So you figure why the USA is not seen as a friend.

Of course the almost $10bln over a decade, and current humanitarian projects, don't ever count for much right? :/

 

[Liquidmetal]

Of course the almost $10bln over a decade, and current humanitarian projects, don't ever count for much right? :/

Of course it counts, and I reiterate that Pak have a lot of admiration for the USA on many levels but we can also have disagreements. Yes you have provided money for certain reason and essentially as rent for the essential communication lines for which you have not held your end of the bargain at the whim of your just your President. The nonsensical war in Afghanistan has cost the USA almost a trillion dollars, but also cost Pakistan 110 billion in economic losses and over 75,000 dead and I suppose that doesn't count either.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

So cento....no double cross.

CENTO

Pakistan ~ got entire military and economy built up in 1960s under guise of CENTO.

• Artillery supplied by USA free of cost
• Patton tanks to equip armoured divisions supplied free of cost by USA
  
• M113 APC for infantry nearly 2,000 supplied free of cost by USA. Even today 50 years later most of Pakistani APC fleet is M113 or derivitives of that.

• 
  Pakistan: 1,600 M113 APCs in Service of the Pakistan Army.[83]

• Training and developing SSG under US Green Berets at Cherat
• Many of the army contonments like Kharian etc built free of cost by USA
• Building airbases for the PAF free of cost by USA
• Supplying PAF with Sabre, Starfighter jets etc free of cost
• Training PAF so that it dominated IAF in 1965 war.
• Most of the navy ships supplied free of cost by USA

• Financing the building of national capital Islamabad free of cost by USA
• Building national parliament buildings courtesy USA
• Building Tarbela and Mangla dams courtesy of USA
• Paying for the laying of most of the industrial base courtesy USA
• Laying the base for nuclear research at PINSTECH courtesy of USA
• Laying the base for SUPARCO including missile technology at Somani Missile Range

There is a reason you see President Ayub Khan supporting a big smile with his American cash cows, Presidents Eisonhover and President Kennedy of USA. 1960s CENTO era

United States of America

Americans expected Pakistan to stand by USA against Soviet Union. The funding and weapons were intended primarily against Soviet threat.



Now did we use them against Soviets? Like fcuk we did. We signed on CENTO but our real target was India. And we used them against India in 1965 much to the annoyance of Americans and they decided to block further aid. Tell me who got cheated here?

 

[Aasimkhan]

Of course the almost $10bln over a decade, and current humanitarian projects, don't ever count for much right? :/

actually they dont, you forgot u caused us losses of more than 100 billion dollars when we became your non nato allies unfortunately.

 

[Trango Towers]

CENTO

Pakistan ~ got entire military and economy built up in 1960s under guise of CENTO.

• Artillery supplied by USA free of cost
• Patton tanks to equip armoured divisions supplied free of cost by USA
  
• M113 APC for infantry nearly 2,000 supplied free of cost by USA. Even today 50 years later most of Pakistani APC fleet is M113 or derivitives of that.

• 
  Pakistan: 1,600 M113 APCs in Service of the Pakistan Army.[83]

• Training and developing SSG under US Green Berets at Cherat
• Many of the army contonments like Kharian etc built free of cost by USA
• Building airbases for the PAF free of cost by USA
• Supplying PAF with Sabre, Starfighter jets etc free of cost
• Training PAF so that it dominated IAF in 1965 war.
• Most of the navy ships supplied free of cost by USA

• Financing the building of national capital Islamabad free of cost by USA
• Building national parliament buildings courtesy USA
• Building Tarbela and Mangla dams courtesy of USA
• Paying for the laying of most of the industrial base courtesy USA
• Laying the base for nuclear research at PINSTECH courtesy of USA
• Laying the base for SUPARCO including missile technology at Somani Missile Range

There is a reason you see President Ayub Khan supporting a big smile with his American cash cows, Presidents Eisonhover and President Kennedy of USA. 1960s CENTO era

View attachment 545295




United States of America

Americans expected Pakistan to stand by USA against Soviet Union. The funding and weapons were intended primarily against Soviet threat.



Now did we use them against Soviets? Like fcuk we did. We signed on CENTO but our real target was India. And we used them against India in 1965 much to the annoyance of Americans and they decided to block further aid. Tell me who got cheated here?

i will keep it short......
which camp was india in?
and sr71.
no free lunch....but some always spew at pakistan

 

[DEFCON12]

Actually you are wrong. You need to read up on your history, we have admired the USA and have been allies since inception but due to the Zionist-anti Islam lobby and the pro-Indian american media/intelligentsia the USA applied unfair sanctions during crucial periods and you should be able to understand how that could result in many Pakistan developing a major trust deficit, I mean you guys took $700M for F16s, sanctioned them and did not return the money either. For a poor country that was a major kick in the nuts. So you figure why the USA is not seen as a friend.

First of all, those who'd want you to believe that an evil 'Zionist lobby under Jews' hates muslims and is responsible for everything are enemies of Pakistan. These are entities that want to deteriorate Pak-US relations at the expense of both countries.

As to your second claim, the US DID return the money for the F16s. This was done in 1998, when $326 million of the $700 million was returned in cash, and $160 million was returned in wheat. Approx $150 million had been returned earlier.

As you see, your first claim of an evil Zionist lobby has virtually seen no evidence surface anywhere. The US always acts in its own interests, not of 'lobbies'. A recent example is the unrest in Venezuela, which is similar to the problems in Cuba during the Missile Crisis.

Your second claim stands refuted as the US did pay Pakistan back, and Pakistan made two choices which resulted in the F16s not being delivered. These are:
-Listening to the Pentagon instead of studying US non-proliferation law.
-Knowing fully well that the US would take negative action against Pak for nuclear weapons, but
deciding that the risk was worth it (and it was) to counter India getting the weapons.

Of course the almost $10bln over a decade, and current humanitarian projects, don't ever count for much right? :/

The US still needs to re-think the whole Palestine problem. Israel uses military force and international influence way too disproportionately, and innocent people often suffer as a result. People in Pak are well within their right to believe that the US is hypocritical w.r.t human rights when they see images/videos of Palestinians dying.

 

[SQ8]

First of all, those who'd want you to believe that an evil 'Zionist lobby under Jews' hates muslims and is responsible for everything are enemies of Pakistan. These are entities that want to deteriorate Pak-US relations at the expense of both countries.

As to your second claim, the US DID return the money for the F16s. This was done in 1998, when $326 million of the $700 million was returned in cash, and $160 million was returned in wheat. Approx $150 million had been returned earlier.

As you see, your first claim of an evil Zionist lobby has virtually seen no evidence surface anywhere. The US always acts in its own interests, not of 'lobbies'. A recent example is the unrest in Venezuela, which is similar to the problems in Cuba during the Missile Crisis.

Your second claim stands refuted as the US did pay Pakistan back, and Pakistan made two choices which resulted in the F16s not being delivered. These are:
-Listening to the Pentagon instead of studying US non-proliferation law.
-Knowing fully well that the US would take negative action against Pak for nuclear weapons, but
deciding that the risk was worth it (and it was) to counter India getting the weapons.


The US still needs to re-think the whole Palestine problem. Israel uses military force and international influence way too disproportionately, and innocent people often suffer as a result. People in Pak are well within their right to believe that the US is hypocritical w.r.t human rights when they see images/videos of Palestinians dying.

Ignorance is bliss. Perception on both sides is from their own lenses when the reality is that expectations were set but understood differently from both sides.

 

[DEFCON12]

Ignorance is bliss. Perception on both sides is from their own lenses when the reality is that expectations were set but understood differently from both sides.

Of course. Countries often behave like individuals in their engagements with each other. While the Pakistanis would expect the US to 'understand' its need of acquiring nuclear weapons, the US would expect Pakistan to 'understand' US' concerns of n-proliferation and n-conflict breaking out in the subcontinent; conflict of which the US would hold itself responsible if Pak used the F16s to drop n-weapons on India.

I might also add that Pakistan's lack of control on n-tech that led to Qadir Khan's proliferation is a black dot that did prove some of the US' concerns correct.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

which camp was india in?

Non aligned with tilt toward USSR. Note 'Non Aligned'. Which mean't it held American hand, Russian tail and a finger everywhere else.

and sr71.

Yes? After the $100 billion USA gave to Pakistan [in todays money] President Ayub to keep the cash cow running gave one base to USA near Peshawar. For $100 billion I think lending one base was good deal.

no free lunch....but some always spew at pakistan

You got it. Why not take heed of it. President Ayub milched USA like a cow and in return he gave one airbase and a non cashed IOU of 'we will fight the Soviets' if needed.

 

[aziqbal]

US sent a carrier strike group in 1971

That’s it they have never been a real friend of Pakistan

We can’t sit on that act of 1971 and hope maybe in 100 years time they will do the same

And it was just a act of support which benefited themselves because they didn’t want Soviet Union to get involved

It was more to show USSR than help Pakistan, like when they cross Taiwan strait it’s not to support Taiwan but rather show China

Pakistan should drop the US and move to China policy

US has and will never benefit us

And I am not even anti-US