Nadeem F Paracha insults Allama Iqbal.

[Desert Fox]

the biggest threat to Pakistan is the self hater fagots.
U can eventually reason with a terrorist but not a libtard.

Both are equally dangerous.

 

[Armstrong]

Sir g do you know , In Javednama Iqbal generously praises Marx, giving him the highest status that a person could aspire to, short of prophet-hood. ... ??? But right now you are in a bad mood . We will discuss it some other time ....

Pataaa nahin kahan kahan seh yeh Sher ke naaam keh Pseudo-Marxists aaa jateiii haiiin !

 

[Kompromat]

Who is this asshole?

Just a drug addict anarchist who writes for DAWN. He is also a good friend of Indian Canadian, Pakistan basher Tarek Fatah.

 

[Nadi]

Islam is about a utopia of Islamic brotherhood. The difference between Allamah Iqbal and Maududi is that Allamah Iqbal was taking the traditional view, the spiritual view. How can he be like Maududi, who called Muslims as non-Muslims, or as Mr Paracha says, worse than him.

It is an accusation that shows nothing but paranoia on the part of Paracha, as he heads on to insult the foundations of Pakistan

Yes this is exactly what Mr Paracha is championing

WHAAAAT? Islam is NOT about the 'utopia' of Islamic brotherhood; Islam talks about a Islamic brotherhood in 'real' terms which was achieved in the early days of Islam and never since. It has become a utopia 'now' that Muslims are divided in to sects, schools of thought, etc.

Any "Utopia" is a state of everyone practicing a philosophy the way it is supposed to be; thus rendering the need for crime and punishment to desist - and that's never going to happen for any philosophy and it wont happen for Islam - not least because there is no agreement on "what Muslims are supposed to be" in the first place. There is The Quran, then the Hadith, some Muslims agree with the need for Hadith, others don't. Four major schools of thought and an increasing number of different sects in Islamic thought, faith and practice. We, Muslims can't even agree on one legal framework and interpretation/understanding of the Sharia.

All of that aside, "Utopia" is a state of perfection - and we all know that it is waste of time pondering over that day when all Muslims once again achieve that perfection. It will never happena again.

Turkey - the last Muslim country with a Khalifa abolished the Caliphate. There ended any chances of an 'ummah'. Yet Turkey is vastly successful today and a relatively freer society today than compared to almost all Muslim countries. Ataturk completely dismantled Islamic strongholds in Turkey, executed Imams and Sheiks en masse, banned the hijab and the Fez and ALMOST changed the way that religion is taught completely. The main brand of Islam in Turkey is Sufi Islam (the whirling dervishes) - a brand that we have a strong base for in Pakistan as well- but it is being killed off by Wahabi and Salafi oil money because for them, Sufis are heretics. To understand Turks and Turkish politics you must first acquaint yourself with Kemal Ataturk: and once you have read his biography and life, you will understand the Turks and how their experiment with Islam has worked while we in Pakistan have failed; even though Pakistan was NOT created for Islam, it was created for Muslims.

NFP is NOT insulting any 'foundations of Pakistan', this is your rhetorical spin on his words to marshal support for your argument on the basis of "if you are a 'sacha musalmaan', then you must obviously support me" - an argument used by Pakistani religious parties, figures, etc for decades- but is essentially an intellectual blackmail.

NFP tells the truth as it is, whether you like it or not. Time for my fellow Pakistanis, I pray, to step up to the plate and start deconstructing their preconceived notions about various things and let go of their inherent prejudices and reflect seriously on who we are, what we stand for. The truth should be the winner, not a particular agenda.

 

[Multani]

Thats her personal opinion and i am yet to find a shred of evidence from Iqbal's work that may have Marxist undertones. Marxism is a political blanket for atheists, Iqbal is the furthest thing away from it. I am not sure how did she reach this absurd conclusion.

She being among the best authors on Islam, from among the whole lot of orientalists, has other really absurd conclusions in her famous work on Islam.

 

[Nadi]

@Nadi how can you be a proud muslim when you insult The Quran by saying Q thumping, you directly mocked God's words if you had a little sense in you, you would not have insulted Quran...for you this is sufficient to know when Allah explained in The Quran.

"If We had sent down this Qur'an upon a mountain, you would have seen it humbled and coming apart from fear of Allah . And these examples We present to the people that perhaps they will give thought".

I am not sure how Iqbal is extremist infact he is the one who is asking people to come out of that extremist mindset see the world and fix yourselves. NFP and like minded perhaps read Iqbal while drunk...

PS. nadi hope you'll try to write in a respectful way about Quran even if you don't agree with others.

How is 'Quran thumping' an insult to the Quran? It is an insult to those who thump the Quran in our faces and raise their voices in the belief that such behavior makes them 'right'. Did I mock anything said in the Quran? Are you delusional? Can you quote me on anything insulting I said about something written in the Quran? NO! Because you are just another brainwashed and lost soul of Pakistan, the ignorant foot soldier of the mullahs.

NO ONE is saying that Iqbal is an extremist. Are you blind? Do you see NFP saying that Iqbal is an extremist? He is simply saying that Iqbal's worse than Maududi in his imagination of the utopia. Thats ALL.

Please practice intellectual honesty. Don't twist someone's words and if you don't understand what they are saying, its better to stay quiet.

 

[Kompromat]

How is 'Quran thumping' an insult to the Quran? It is an insult to those who thump the Quran in our faces and raise their voices in the belief that such behavior makes them 'right'. Did I mock anything said in the Quran? Are you delusional? Can you quote me on anything insulting I said about something written in the Quran? NO! Because you are just another brainwashed and lost soul of Pakistan, the ignorant foot soldier of the mullahs.

NO ONE is saying that Iqbal is an extremist. Are you blind? Do you see NFP saying that Iqbal is an extremist? He is simply saying that Iqbal's worse than Maududi in his imagination of the utopia. Thats ALL.

Please practice intellectual honesty. Don't twist someone's words and if you don't understand what they are saying, its better to stay quiet.

And my friendly advice to you is to stop insulting members you engage in debate. If he is a 'Brainwashed, mullah infantry lost soul' than you are NOT the beacon of 'intellectual honesty' as you desire to pass by either.

 

[Leader]

I disagree with his way of expression but does he not have the right to disagree with Iqbal? Is Iqbal God or Prophet that no one can critise him?

ofcourse we all can. the point is he is just ranting to drag attention, not that he has something concrete to argue his views with.

thats why I said in my first post, cheap talk by him equal to spitting on moon !

p/s bet next he will talk shit about Jinnah..

 

[Nadi]

And my friendly advice to you is to stop insulting members you engage in debate. If he is a 'Brainwashed, mullah infantry lost soul' than you are NOT the beacon of 'intellectual honesty' as you desire to pass by either.

To each, his own. You taking offence to my words and not looking at what I was accused of without evidence speaks volumes of the side you are on Sir. I am a Muslim and I consider someone accusing me of insulting the Quran as an insult to me and my faith. Therefore I responded to an insult with an insult.

Should I predict my account being banned just because you don't like what I have to say?

 

[Multani]

WHAAAAT? Islam is NOT about the 'utopia' of Islamic brotherhood; Islam talks about a Islamic brotherhood in 'real' terms which was achieved in the early days of Islam and never since. It has become a utopia 'now' that Muslims are divided in to sects, schools of thought, etc.

Any "Utopia" is a state of everyone practicing a philosophy the way it is supposed to be; thus rendering the need for crime and punishment to desist - and that's never going to happen for any philosophy and it wont happen for Islam - not least because there is no agreement on "what Muslims are supposed to be" in the first place. There is The Quran, then the Hadith, some Muslims agree with the need for Hadith, others don't. Four major schools of thought and an increasing number of different sects in Islamic thought, faith and practice. We, Muslims can't even agree on one legal framework and interpretation/understanding of the Sharia.

All of that aside, "Utopia" is a state of perfection - and we all know that it is waste of time pondering over that day when all Muslims once again achieve that perfection. It will never happena again.

Turkey - the last Muslim country with a Khalifa abolished the Caliphate. There ended any chances of an 'ummah'. Yet Turkey is vastly successful today and a relatively freer society today than compared to almost all Muslim countries. Ataturk completely dismantled Islamic strongholds in Turkey, executed Imams and Sheiks en masse, banned the hijab and the Fez and ALMOST changed the way that religion is taught completely. The main brand of Islam in Turkey is Sufi Islam (the whirling dervishes) - a brand that we have a strong base for in Pakistan as well- but it is being killed off by Wahabi and Salafi oil money because for them, Sufis are heretics. To understand Turks and Turkish politics you must first acquaint yourself with Kemal Ataturk: and once you have read his biography and life, you will understand the Turks and how their experiment with Islam has worked while we in Pakistan have failed; even though Pakistan was NOT created for Islam, it was created for Muslims.

NFP is NOT insulting any 'foundations of Pakistan', this is your rhetorical spin on his words to marshal support for your argument on the basis of "if you are a 'sacha musalmaan', then you must obviously support me" - an argument used by Pakistani religious parties, figures, etc for decades- but is essentially an intellectual blackmail.

NFP tells the truth as it is, whether you like it or not. Time for my fellow Pakistanis, I pray, to step up to the plate and start deconstructing their preconceived notions about various things and let go of their inherent prejudices and reflect seriously on who we are, what we stand for. The truth should be the winner, not a particular agenda.

Mr Paracha said Allamah Iqbal was talking of a Utopia. Allamah Iqbal was a REALIST. He was a spiritualist, with real living teachers, from whom he gained knowledge, and then pondered, unlike Mr Paracha, who has not learned religion, and from your post Nadi, I don't believe you have either.

The Uthmani Caliphate was abolished due to external aggression and instigated internal aggression. You have given evidence of that aggression.

You, Nadi, do not seem to know about the other side of Turkey. I did not see it in your post above. You don't seem to have knowledge of Islamic Turkey. It seems you are not acquainted with contemporary Turkish Sunni Scholars and Sufi Masters. Probably, you are not aware of their education institutes, their seminaries, teachers, and students. I am not bragging, but letting you know that there is another side of Turkey, which it seems, you don't know about. So, I don't think you hold much ground in using Turkey as an example for Pakistan.

Mr Paracha has lied. But his lie is based on his gross [ and deliberate ] misunderstanding of Allamah Iqbal and other Muslims. He comes with pre-conceived notions that he has developed in cognition to Western/progressive thought. Stuck in his own bubble, that is the reason why he describes himself as an anarchist. Allama Iqbal was a realist, from the villages and towns of Punjab. A man of the land.

 

[Kompromat]

To each, his own. You taking offence to my words and not looking at what I was accused of without evidence speaks volumes of the side you are on Sir. I am a Muslim and I consider someone accusing me of insulting the Quran as an insult to me and my faith. Therefore I responded to an insult with an insult.

Should I predict my account being banned just because you don't like what I have to say?

Self victimization won't conceal your deliberate attack on luftwaffe. Calling him an ignorant mirrors your own ignorance. And please don't sir me...there is no need for it nor do i feel comfortable with it.

 

[jaibi]

We should respect his opinions at least.

 

[Kompromat]

We should respect his opinions at least.

Respect is given to people who give it first and know the value of a civil argument. NFP is an intellectual midget and deserves ziltch respect in my humble opinion.

 

[Jackdaws]

this is defamation. unless he produce a research paper backing up his claim. he is just trying to come in spotlight by cheap talk !

I do think it is a bit late for Iqbal to sue for defamation.

 

[Kompromat]

By that argument you are negating (sorry to say more then 50 percent) of Pak's population
who like to end sentences with "Islam says so".

Please help me here because i have not been able to process what you have just stated. My brain is incapable of connecting these dots.