My PAK-FA analysis

[desiman]

Buddy,

Comparing the crude language and disjointedness of your previous attempts to 'explain' radar low observability to this one now, it is clear that it is YOU who are modifying other's works to present them as your own. But as you wish...


The X-band is the most prevalent so it is logical to target the X-band due to other technological limitations, such as limited bandwidth in absorbers.


No objections there, except that we currently do not deploy 'flying saucers' so your point is...errr...pointless. Angled facetings ala F-117 proved to be inadequate once other needs are taken into account. The F-117 had no radar, for example. That leave those curved surfaces to exploit, as much as possible, the 'creeping wave' effect as the best solution for a fighter with extremely low radar reflectivity.


True...But for now it is mostly deflection that we can use.


Is this where you stole for your 'arguments'...?

Stealth Technology ? FREE Stealth Technology information | Encyclopedia.com: Find Stealth Technology research

Dang...Practically word for word...We can pretty much dismiss the rest. I have no overall objections to what you stole...errr...I mean 'explained'.

Do you think im going to waste my time and write what is obvious in my words again only to be then ridiculed? Gambit you practice the same technique in a more refined way replacing words here and there or add a few snippets of yours. The fact of the matter is to provide information and that is what im doing. This is not a university essay where i need to put everything into my words. My expertise is supply chain management and procurement so i dont plan to waste my time trying to prove you wrong by writing page long articles. We both know where both of our "Information “comes from.


P.s. atleast you agreed so one battle is won

 

[desiman]

LOL so where do you get your articles from gambit specially about the creeping wave effect lol IEEE Xplore - Home or nist.gov some other technical database ? Damn I should have used them too

 

[desiman]

Maybe after all the bashing that the PAKFA has received this is how it is going to look like after 5 years

 

[amalakas]

Our goal must never be to ridicule anyone on this forum or any other fora for that matter.

In any case, although Gambit provides the correct info, this is a catch 22 with him.. because he's walking one line and never deviates from it.

The truth of the matter is that a stealth design makes lots of assumptions and compromises. E.g. The F22 designers made the assumption that maximum stealth should be on the X band. So far they are proved right because systems able to track such a design although presented and explained, have never been integrated in any defence around the world yet.

Now Visual stealth is not the same as IR stealth and there are many spectra to look for.. the simple fact is the plane is there, one way or the other we can find it and track it. the question is
*can we fit such a system on a fighter plane ?
*can we afford to ?
*must we ?
*what do we get out of it?

nobody has reinvented the wheel in a very long time ... I don't think Gambit is right to dismiss the PAK FA design.. he seems to follow the old cold war line that Russians just copy the US when it has been proven time and time again that although they take advantage of US made and drawn conclusions on any subject area, they will make their own requirements and produce solutions like the MiG 29 and Su 27. And let's not forget the RD 180.. a design US scientists had absolutely concluded is not possible... only to be found abandoned in some warehouse in russia...

On the other hand derieman is a bit too eager to walk in the clouds I think..... exotic technologies take many years to be incorporated in anything... it is not easy for anyone.. look how long it took the US to come up with the F22 .

 

[desiman]

Our goal must never be to ridicule anyone on this forum or any other fora for that matter.

In any case, although Gambit provides the correct info, this is a catch 22 with him.. because he's walking one line and never deviates from it.

The truth of the matter is that a stealth design makes lots of assumptions and compromises. E.g. The F22 designers made the assumption that maximum stealth should be on the X band. So far they are proved right because systems able to track such a design although presented and explained, have never been integrated in any defence around the world yet.

Now Visual stealth is not the same as IR stealth and there are many spectra to look for.. the simple fact is the plane is there, one way or the other we can find it and track it. the question is
*can we fit such a system on a fighter plane ?
*can we afford to ?
*must we ?
*what do we get out of it?

nobody has reinvented the wheel in a very long time ... I don't think Gambit is right to dismiss the PAK FA design.. he seems to follow the old cold war line that Russians just copy the US when it has been proven time and time again that although they take advantage of US made and drawn conclusions on any subject area, they will make their own requirements and produce solutions like the MiG 29 and Su 27. And let's not forget the RD 180.. a design US scientists had absolutely concluded is not possible... only to be found abandoned in some warehouse in russia...

On the other hand derieman is a bit too eager to walk in the clouds I think..... exotic technologies take many years to be incorporated in anything... it is not easy for anyone.. look how long it took the US to come up with the F22 .

Well said i respect that Lets wait and watch

 

[marcos98]

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/02/pak-fa-from-technological-pov.html#more
An interesting video about T-50 program was published by Russian 'Roscosmos TV'. The follow text is my translation to English:

Short acceleration – 200 m only – and the take-off is done! Other aircrafts can do this only from carriers. However, the Russian 5th gen fighter has a number of features allow it to take-off from a short horizontal airstrip. The 5th gen engine effectively provides it.
Ilia Fedorov, the Supervising Director of NPO 'Saturn', deputy general director of the Russian 'United Engine-building Corporation' (UEBC) tells about the difference of t-50's engine:
- "It has different thrust, naturally different tuning control. The number of constructive differences allow better thrust with lower fuel consumption. And the most important – it has totally different system of control".


The new engine of NPO 'Saturn' for PAK FA is the evolution of an engine family marked by the index '117'. Its tests on 'Saturn's facility in Rybinsk can be seen on this video. It proved its characteristics on the 1st PAK FA prototype: the taking-off is very steep on the video.

Sergey Chemezov, the Director General of 'Rostechnology' state corporation (NPO 'Saturn' owner) says:
- "The engine allows long time supersonic fly without the afterburner. The thrust-vectoring is provided for better maneuverability".

The engine is the heart of a fighter, but the radar is its eyes and ears. And the navigation system is like a 'vestibular system'. All these indispensible features of 5th generation were developed together with the fighter itself.
Sergey Chemezov, the Director General of 'Rostechnology' state corporation (NPO 'Saturn' owner) says:
- "The sub-units of 'Rostechnology' Corp. are produced engines and different devices for different planes including of course - PAK FA. I think they produce about 70% in this class of parts".
The pilots notice with pride: even the first prototypes have almost serial avionics. They have 5 next years for elimination this 'allmost' by tests.
Boris Obnosov, Director General of 'Tactical Missiles Weapon' Corp., says:
- "The intensity of the tests had no examples even in USSR era. It due to the big numbers of devices (missiles) and shorten terms of development. As it was already declared by RuAF Commander General we are responsible to provide this plane as a weapon system".
It's not kind of 'demonstration aircraft' for an air-show, but the formidable universal weapon system: air-to-air, air-to-ground, short, medium and long range. R-73 – is the smallest but formidable air-to-air missiles. It's in modernization. It's a 'digital' missile like all T-50's weapon systems.
Boris Obnosov, Director General of 'Tactical Missiles Weapon' Corp., says:
- "The obligate condition for 5th gen fighters like F-22 and PAK FA as well is intra-fuselage placement of missiles. It's provided for RCS reduction".
The American F-22 'Raptor' was considered invincible till T-50 appearance. F-22's constructive 'ideology' is stealthiness against ground-based radars. The 'Sukhoi's fighter 'ideology': to spot 'Raptor' early and to overwhelm it in the short range fighting. In fighting stealth vs. stealth the better radar will decide the winner.
Vladimir Zagorodny, Constructor General, the department Chief in NIIP 'Tikhomirov' says:
- "We will be able to counter these stealth fighters and even win them in some duel situations".
Vladimir Zagorodny shows his team 'baby': the radar for the new fighter. Due to secrecy the door here is usually closed for press, but they did exception for us. The AESA has more then 1500 MMICs. This radar is named AFAR in Russian: the active phased antenna array. Five AESA radars over all airframe will detect the targets in any direction.
Vladimir Zagorodny, Constructor General, the department Chief in NIIP 'Tikhomirov' says:
- "I didn’t see such technology in 'Raptor' or F-35".

All T-50's electronics is netted in a unified intellectual complex, able to prompt pilot what to do in the fly. Indeed, the 5th gen fighter – is sometimes called 'flying computer'. The part of the pilot work will be done by the computer.
Andrey Tyulin, Director General of 'Aviapriborostroyenie' concern, says:
- "The avionics allow high precision flying to the needed point, successful using high precision weapon, and aircraft precise positioning in the air space".

Stealth technology means less IR emission and less metal in the airframe. Then, the engine blades must be hidden and the composites must be used broader.
Nikolay Vymornov, the Chief Technologist of NPK 'Composite' says:
- "In F-22 and F-35 the use of composites in airframe is not less, then 40%. We are sure, in our PAK FA fighter the use of composites will not fall of this number".
The new carbon-plastic composite was already developed specially for 5th gen fighters. The metal details are made with new technologies too. The plane will fly on critical and even super-critical fly regimes. So the special requirements for the materials are needed. It's OK now in Russia: our country is the biggest titan consructions supplier.
Sergey Chemezov, the Director General of 'Rostechnology' state corporation (NPO 'Saturn' owner) says:
- "The titan alloys (of T-50) are manufactured in VSMPO 'Avisma' – the world biggest titan alloys and titan products manufacturer".
The first flying prototype – is only a subject for testing. When T-50 appears in RuAF colors it probably will look rather different. However, the work done is not done in vain.

 

[Thomas]

The American F-22 'Raptor' was considered invincible till T-50 appearance. F-22's constructive 'ideology' is stealthiness against ground-based radars. The 'Sukhoi's fighter 'ideology': to spot 'Raptor' early and to overwhelm it in the short range fighting.

I can see some draw backs to that strategy. First I doubt we will see the T-50 go head to head in combat against the F-22 or F-35. Unless they plan on mass exporting it. And even then very few countries could afford large enough numbers of them to make a difference against the U.S.

The U.S. would quickly overwhelm a smaller countries air force just in shear numbers of aircraft deployed. It would have been better to concentrate on more RCS reduction rather then trying to detect a F-22 from further out. Which still has to be proven by the way.

 

[marcos98]

ok found this pic from reuters......
its not clear but you can distinctively see pakfa in colour camo........

 

[gambit]

The American F-22 'Raptor' was considered invincible till T-50 appearance. F-22's constructive 'ideology' is stealthiness against ground-based radars. The 'Sukhoi's fighter 'ideology': to spot 'Raptor' early and to overwhelm it in the short range fighting. In fighting stealth vs. stealth the better radar will decide the winner.
Vladimir Zagorodny, Constructor General, the department Chief in NIIP 'Tikhomirov' says:
- "We will be able to counter these stealth fighters and even win them in some duel situations".
Vladimir Zagorodny shows his team 'baby': the radar for the new fighter. Due to secrecy the door here is usually closed for press, but they did exception for us. The AESA has more then 1500 MMICs. This radar is named AFAR in Russian: the active phased antenna array. Five AESA radars over all airframe will detect the targets in any direction.
Vladimir Zagorodny, Constructor General, the department Chief in NIIP 'Tikhomirov' says:
- "I didn’t see such technology in 'Raptor' or F-35".

Vlady here is being a blowhard. Probably from too much celebratory vodka from the PRAT-FALL's first flight. Antenna dimensions affect effective detection range. So if the PRAT-FALL's main antenna, the one in the nose, will have a difficult time detecting the F-22 or F-35, what make he thinks small arrays anywhere else is going to a better job? May be the vodka is making him think that way.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

well the bottomline is.... in south asia indian planes will roar and create a good amount of thunder in the skies...i think everbody will agree on this ....

su 30 mki, upgraded mirage's, PAKFA, and 124 no.s of who's who as per MRCA....certainly yes.....anybody in this part of the world will think twice and would certainly want to make indians friends and not enemies.....

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

by the way for indians money isn't problem...i came to know that there is one hindu temple in south of india whose assests are around $10Bn....its like the roman catholic churches who ownhalf of the world's money....if this is correct than i imagine how much indians will covertly spend money on defense in coming years..these guys are growing big and bigger years by years......good see countries from east growing

 

[policecontrolroom]

by the way for indians money isn't problem...i came to know that there is one hindu temple in south of india whose assests are around $10Bn....its like the roman catholic churches who ownhalf of the world's money....if this is correct than i imagine how much indians will covertly spend money on defense in coming years..these guys are growing big and bigger years by years......good see countries from east growing

yes its true its called tirupathi.. the donations they get from people each year is enough to buy 100 typhoons, not to talk of assets and revenue from them.

 

[sudhir007]

Google Translate

Tests of promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) are successful, said Tuesday the "Interfax" a source in the military-industrial complex. To date, T-50 fighter jet has successfully completed six test flights, the source said.

Program flight tests PAK FA is in accordance with the schedule, said the representative of the military-industrial complex. Fighter fully confirms the claimed characteristics, and this means that some serious modifications aircraft structure is required.

"The new machine is highly manoeuvrable and good handling in flight" - the spokesman said. He noted that the front of an extensive program of flight tests, the results of which will be judged on the actual flight-technical and combat capabilities of the fifth generation fighter.

Pass they will be in the Gromov Flight Research Institute (Zhukovsky, Moscow region), in the State flight test center of the Defense Ministry (Akhtubinsk, Astrakhan region).

Fifth generation fighter aircraft - a plane with artificial intelligence

T-50 - heavy-class fighter with a takeoff weight of more than 30 tons, the average dimensions (roughly corresponding to the Su-27), which is a monoplane with widely spaced engines, and two keels, strongly deflected outward from the longitudinal axis. The appearance of the airframe was designed using the technology geometrical invisibility stealth ".

Compared with previous generations of fighter T-50 has several unique features, combining the functions of attack aircraft and fighter.The aircraft is equipped with a fifth-generation an entirely new avionics, which integrates the function of "e-pilot", and promising radar with a phased antenna array. This greatly reduces the load on the pilot and can concentrate on the implementation of tactical tasks.

Т-50 может взлетать и садиться, используя участки взлетно-посадочной полосы длиной 300-400 метров. T-50 can take off and land, using parts of the runway length of 300-400 meters. The plane will reach speeds of up to 2,1 thousand kilometers per hour, and to fly a distance of up to 5,5 thousand kilometers. Fighter is also equipped with a set of in-flight refueling.

The aircraft has a large internal compartment weapons. It can accommodate up to eight missiles such as R-77 air combat or two huge bombs driven mass of 1500 kilograms. The fighter is capable of external sling carry two extra high-range missile design bureau "Innovator". These T-50 missiles capable of destroying aircraft, such as AWACS, at a distance of 400 kilometers.

 

[CONNAN]

yes its true its called tirupathi.. the donations they get from people each year is enough to buy 100 typhoons, not to talk of assets and revenue from them.

i wish thirumala devasthanam money should be used to fund our defence budjets

venkanna govindaa goooovindaa

 

[illuminatidinesh]

i wish thirumala devasthanam money should be used to fund our defence budjets

venkanna govindaa goooovindaa

And we use the defense budget to make ladoooooooooos................
Just kidding bro. Ya it will be Govinda gooooovinda