'My dream is that Pakistan is the force multiplier for India'

[IceCold]

People like you are no leaders. You are a mere follower and you want Pakistan to be merely an appendage and so, your comments.

India has not indicated the same feeling as Zardari? Let us accept that for debate's sake. How is it that you have failed to notice that Zardari by stating so first, is laying down the ground rules. He is acting as a leader and not a camp follower as you are and you want Pakistan to be!

I am glad that India was not the first off the block, since naysayers like you would have pounced to give it a devious touch!

Though I have reservations about Zardari, but here, he seems to have taken the wind off India's sails and is enunciating a vision that others seem to have not seen!

Weakness is spawned by insecurity as displayed by the ilks of you. Here, Zardari seems to know his onions and is very confident of his country's destiny and of himself too.

If only he were no Mr 10%, I would have been more comfortable.

People like me are no leaders and nor i have said anything that has got to do anything with me being a leader. Followers of who? You speak as if you will going to be the next pm of india.
Now Zardari acting as a leader, no wonder you would call him, certainly anyone who could carry on the indian version would be a leader in your eyes, maybe a hero too who knows and that is why my question was directed towards pakistanes which you fail to realize, you dont fall in that category. Now i dont mind you replying to my post since this is a public forum, however one must realize the significance of what i said and to whom, you sir again dont fall into this category because you will see every thing from the indian point of view which you should obiviously. The point that i mentioned above and also which reflects from the post of many here including you, is that india hasnt and will not step back one inch from its orginal stance. The question is why should we? We have been saying all along that india has illegaly occupied Kashmir, going now the other way, you think will not effect the face of pakistan, think again(who am i telling too).

One has to have face to lose it! Unlike you, he is quite confident of his country's face and he is ready to face the world on equal terms.

One has to have face to lose it! hmmm are you suggesting that pakistan does not have a face at all so what is there to lose at the first place? Unlike me, how did u drag me into it since i was talking about pakistan and not myself. Obiviously however when pakistan loses face, pakistanies will too me included, Zardari maybe confident, yet this confidence should be used as a symbol of power just like in musharraf era and not weakness which seems to be the case here.

Moreover i have always suggested you to come up with facts when you are in a mood to argue and not your personal opinion against me which seems to be the case in almost every thread with your post against mine, argument just for the sake of argument.
I've mentioned some facts such as the IPI project, clearly shows how much india is interested in having a long term relationship developed with pakistan, india's obsession with the gawadar port, india crying out loud on every bullet that pakistan gets, the new cold start doctrine of india specifically against pakistan, blaming pakistan for every terrorist act in india, the baluchistan insurgentcy, and the list goes on and on. If you want to argue over it be my guest but do it with some facts that you always seem to be low at and not with your usual BS attitude trying to get some attention in your low life.

 

[IceCold]

Ice cold the very statement of Zardari has gained Pakistan the kind of respect in us Indians eyes no nuclear or an artilery brigde could deliver to you for decades. Period

Isnt it obivious, speaking your tongue will give him the creditablity in the eyes of indians, i was talking about the world. Understand this, india isnt the world, pakistan all along have stated that kashmir is a disputed terrority according to the resolutions of the UN and should be resolved according to the wishes of kashmires, now after sixty years we suddenly take a U-turn on it, what impression are we leaving on to the world and the kashmiri people themselves? That we were bull shiting all along and india was right from the very beginning.
These are the things which our leaders unfourtantely neglect when coming up with such horrific suggestions and mentality and it is because of this mentality that kashmir issue seems to fade away as far as international community is concened and we are the ones to be blamed for it.

 

[Flintlock]

Zardari is an astute politician (do I even need to say this). who has sensed the change in wind direction early.
He knows that neither India nor Pakistan can afford another full-scale conflict and Kashmir will remain on the boil unless there are decisive talks.

He is also definitely licking his lips awaiting all the kickbacks to be obtained by expanding relations with India.

The world has changed. Today's politicians can't simply make money and do nothing. They have to be smarter: Produce results and make money at the same time.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Understand this, india isnt the world, pakistan all along have stated that kashmir is a disputed terrority according to the resolutions of the UN and should be resolved according to the wishes of kashmires, now after sixty years we suddenly take a U-turn on it, what impression are we leaving on to the world and the kashmiri people themselves? That we were bull shiting all along and india was right from the very beginning.

Icecold:

One could argue that any agreement that does not give India all of Kashmir ends up making them look as "bullshitters all along" as well - they have always argued for Kashmir being an "integral part of India", refusing to even acknowledge its disputed status.

One could make a case that Pakistan cannot simply ignore the "people" aspect of the conflict - we have after all always stated that the Kashmiris wishes need to be respected, but nothing in what Zardari has said implies that he is completely distancing himself from that position.

He is arguing for a removal of the military from Kashmir (I imagine from our side as well) and setting up economic zones, trade between the two Kashmirs is already on the anvil, and so are expanded travel agreements.

If the people of Kashmir can be facilitated and "united" through open borders, extensive autonomy and demilitarization, then it is still a worthwhile solution, and one that should allow the Kashmiris sufficient freedom and prosperity.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The world has changed. Today's politicians can't simply make money and do nothing. They have to be smarter: Produce results and make money at the same time.

I have no problems with that!

Just produce the damn results.

On a somewhat related note, perceptions and investor confidence are only changed and gained over time though, so I don't expect dramatic improvements in Pakistan's economic condition for at least a year after the judiciary issue is dead and buried.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Icecold.

All I am saying give Peace a chance.

I don't have to be a Pakistani or an Eskimo to feel that Peace should not be given a chance.

Zardari is not selling Ice to Eskimos.

 

[Flintlock]

All I am saying give Peace a chance.

LOL...have you been listening to John Lennon?

 

[zombie]

This is unlikely to work. South Asians are at the mindset of 14th Century Europe. To expect to think like them currently is asking for too much.

There is a reason why the west is so easily able to manipulate South Asians and are more than happy to be manipulated as long as it benefits us temporarily or helps our current ideological differences. Blaming the others is also counterproductive in the sense that unless we are more than ready to fight without others help.

Seeing the larger picture and able to see a problem from a third mans perspective is not one of the strengths.

Has South Asia ever been able to manipulate the western countries and make them fight like cats and dogs like SA's?

South Asians are the laughing stock of the world currently after the arabs.

Even on this board we see that the moment one side says its a good idea the other side is ready to pounce on the other and vice versa...instead of seeing the things in a more realistic sense..what is the gap and what needs to be done to bridge the gap..where we agree..where we dont..what is realitic. Its all emotions and very less grey matter. No it doesnt mean bhai bhai..but whats in the greater interest of both the nations.

If the 2 countries nuke each other and destroy this group of people...who will be the loser and who will be not bothered and say... "see these guys were exactly what we always said about them". And who stands to lose if we dont let emotions overcome our senses?


If educated people on this board itself are so shaken by this imagine the other common person who are used to a particular kind of thinking.

Personally dont know what Zardari is but having seen his interview with Karan Thapar he looked pretty impressive..far more than many of other south asian leaders karan has interviewed. Maybe he is just a plain good talker or a man ahead of his times.

Either way it is 600 yrs too early for South Asians...

Even if we think otherwise and decide to move ahead, a measured step by step approach is much better as it will give time for the people's mindset to adjust. Moving too quickly could be fatal and a huge mistake.

 

[Flintlock]

I doubt that it will take a whole 600 years for the mindset of people to change.

You are overrating the Europeans btw.....its not that hard to realize that they were busy killing each other just over half a century ago.

Zardari has made a good move, but as I said, the man is no statesman. He is an opportunist like any other, and he's seen his opportunity in good ties with India.

Ultimately, the end result is that the countries are coming closer (or atleast appearing to on the surface) which is good.

 

[salman nedian]

I don't think Zardari is talking about unification in the sense of one nation or one political entity.

His reference to the EU, and his vision for how Pakistan could provide so much of the raw materials, energy supplies etc. to India, clearly indicate that he is thinking along the lines of two distinct politically sovereign entities, but with the close, mutually beneficial economic cooperation of the EU.

The reference to "one country, one nation" is typical "bhai bhai" stuff while making peace.

Happens all the time in encounters with Indians abroad. If you remember, I even started a thread on whether comments such as those were disrespectful, or merely banter to break the ice.

Agno!
IMO Pakistan has to make some kind of an economic and defense cooperation block in south Asia but we still don’t have that kind of relations with India. Indians still have to prove a lot for building confidence with us to trust them so any economic and defense cooperation block which we can make is with Bangladesh as Bangladesh is not a very huge market like India so it will be in mutual benefits

 

[MIG_ACE]

Agno!
IMO Pakistan has to make some kind of an economic and defense cooperation block in south Asia but we still don’t have that kind of relations with India. Indians still have to prove a lot for building confidence with us to trust them so any economic and defense cooperation block which we can make is with Bangladesh as Bangladesh is not a very huge market like India so it will be in mutual benefits

Won't a bigger market be better for the Pakistani producers than a smaller one? Your statement doesn't seem to make economic sense.

 

[salman nedian]

Won't a bigger market be better for the Pakistani producers than a smaller one? Your statement doesn't seem to make economic sense.

Think about the trade deficit.