Muslims in Middle Kingdom and Contemporary China Celebrating Festivals and More

[M. Sarmad]

We can ask someone who would know.
@Azlan Haider ,bro im sure you can help out.

The exact origin of Burqa is unknown but some earliest Christian writings mention that the Arabian women used similar forms of veiling even four to five centuries prior to the birth of Islamic Prophet Muhammad SAW. Most probably, this pre-Islamic Arab tradition (of wearing Niqab), like many other Arab tribal traditions/customs, remained unchanged and was later mistaken as "Islamic ruling" rather than "Arab Custom" by some Muslim scholars and jurists.


Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 240 AD), a prolific early Christian author, making a reference to early Arabian women, urges married Christian women to cover their faces (like Arab women).

"Arabia's heathen females will be your judges, who cover not only the head, but the face also, so entirely, that they are content, with one eye free, to enjoy rather half the light than to prostitute the entire face. A female would rather see than be seen" (17:4)

http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf04/anf04-09.htm#P671_166987

 

[Saif al-Arab]

So your source is Wikipedia ??

Read my post again, slowly and carefully, especially this part:

"Arabia's heathen females will be your judges, who cover not only the head, but the face also, so entirely, that they are content, with one eye free, to enjoy rather half the light than to prostitute the entire face. A female would rather see than be seen" (17:4)


And don't act like a typical Arab supremacist idiot. Instead of ranting, bring forward counter arguments if you can

How old are you?

No, my source is not Wikipedia. I used one quotation from Wikipedia which uses a source from Oxford University Press and Cambridge University Press. Is that enough for you?

Nothing supremacist about educating a foreigner who acts like he knows it all while he clearly has a great lack of knowledge about the history of Arabia and the Arab world. I can give you plenty of Arabic sources as well that confirms what I say but I don't expect you to understand Arabic.

The only idiot here is you.

The exact origin of Burqa is unknown but some earliest Christian writings mention that the Arabian women used similar forms of veiling even four to five centuries prior to the birth of Islamic Prophet Muhammad SAW. Most probably, this pre-Islamic Arab tradition (of wearing Niqab), like many other Arab tribal traditions/customs, remained unchanged and was later mistaken as "Islamic ruling" rather than "Arab Custom" by some Muslim scholars and jurists.


Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 240 AD), a prolific early Christian author, making a reference to early Arabian women, urges married Christian women to cover their faces (like Arab women).

"Arabia's heathen females will be your judges, who cover not only the head, but the face also, so entirely, that they are content, with one eye free, to enjoy rather half the light than to prostitute the entire face. A female would rather see than be seen" (17:4)

http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf04/anf04-09.htm#P671_166987

Nothing like the burqa (which is moreover a word of Farsi origin and originates from the Pardah dress worn in pre-Islamic Iran) was ever worn in Arabia. See post 95. Moreover many Greek/Roman sources use Arabia for anything east to coastal Sham. A niqab does not cover the entire face btw unlike the burqa.

Christian Arabs whether in Arabia or elsewhere in the Arab world wore at most a veil much reminiscent of the modern-day hijab.

Some Arab dresses from 4th century to 6th century. In other words just before the advent of Islam.



I don't see any burqa. Nor is a black burqa/niqab a part of our traditional dresses some of which I already posted in post 95. Sourced material as well. We know our history well.

None of our well-famous queens wore anything reminiscent of a burqa or niqab either.

Some Arabian Goddesses shared by many Semitic peoples and related to ancient Semitic pre-Abrahamic (themselves of Semitic origins) religions:



Controversial (for Islamist literalists) but nevertheless true account based on actual historical facts:

http://www.arabhumanists.org/arab-women-pre-islam/

I am afraid that foreigners like you that lack elementary knowledge about the history of Arabia should not make such absurd claims. Even your source (which at most mentions something similar to a niqab and worn by Christian Arab women = mostly modern-day Sham in other words as Christianity was very rare in Arabia 1800 years ago!) shatters the "burqa nonsense" which is not worn today in KSA or the Arab world and never was nor is a word of Arabic origin but Farsi (Pardah) to begin with.

Read again, slowly and carefully:


"Arabia's heathen females will be your judges, who cover not only the head, but the face also, so entirely, that they are content, with one eye free, to enjoy rather half the light than to prostitute the entire face. A female would rather see than be seen" (17:4)

You do realize that there were hardly any Christians living in Arabia between 155-240 AD right? Arabia in his writings means modern-day Sham most likely. Did I also not just tell you that Arabia has many geographical meanings in the writings of ancient Greeks and Romans. Try to do some research on your own.

Here is another source:

"It has been suggested that the practice of wearing a veil – uncommon among the Arab tribes prior to the rise of Islam – originated in the Byzantine Empire, and then spread.[21]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil

Source:

1. Review of Herrin book and Michael Angold. Church and Society in Byzantium Under the Comneni, 1081–1261. Cambridge University Press. pp. 426–7 & ff;1995. ISBN 0-521-26986-5. see also John Esposito (2005). Islam: The Straight Path. Oxford University Press. pp. 98, 3rd Edition.

You are basically trying to convince ignorants here that burqa (something not worn anywhere in the Arab world) historically or EVEN today and which is a word of non-Arabic origin (Farsi and derives from the Pardah dress) is an Arabian invention is laughable.

 

[T-123456]

The exact origin of Burqa is unknown but some earliest Christian writings mention that the Arabian women used similar forms of veiling even four to five centuries prior to the birth of Islamic Prophet Muhammad SAW. Most probably, this pre-Islamic Arab tradition (of wearing Niqab), like many other Arab tribal traditions/customs, remained unchanged and was later mistaken as "Islamic ruling" rather than "Arab Custom" by some Muslim scholars and jurists.


Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 240 AD), a prolific early Christian author, making a reference to early Arabian women, urges married Christian women to cover their faces (like Arab women).

"Arabia's heathen females will be your judges, who cover not only the head, but the face also, so entirely, that they are content, with one eye free, to enjoy rather half the light than to prostitute the entire face. A female would rather see than be seen" (17:4)

http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf04/anf04-09.htm#P671_166987

So,can we say the origin of the burqa is debatable,because of the words ''one eye free''?

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Here is another source (Britannica) which I guess that this individual will dismiss like he dismissed "nonsense" sources such as Cambridge University Press and Oxford University Press aside from what I wrote in post 95 and post 107, including the other sources used in those posts. Some of it visual evidence (the numerous traditional dresses worn in KSA/Arabia - neither of which have any resemblance to modern-day niqabs LET ALONE burqas which are NOT worn anywhere in Arabia or Arab world.

Purdah, also spelled Pardah, Hindi Parda (“screen,” or “veil”), practice that was inaugurated by Muslims and later adopted by various Hindus, especially in India, and that involves the seclusion of women from public observation by means of concealing clothing (including the veil) and by the use of high-walled enclosures, screens, and curtains within the home.

The practice of purdah is said to have originated in the Persian culture and to have been acquired by the Muslims during the Arab conquest of what is now Iran in the 7th century ad. Muslim domination of northern India in turn influenced the practice of Hinduism, and purdah became usual among the Hindu upper classes of northern India. During the British hegemony in India, purdah observance was strictly adhered to and widespread among the highly conscious Muslim minority. Since then, purdah has largely disappeared in Hindu practice, though the seclusion and veiling of women is practiced to a greater or lesser degree in many Islāmic countries. See also harem.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/purdah

Anyway it's laughable to discuss this with an obvious ignorant that tries to teach the history of my land and people which I have spend years studying. The obligatory unmotivated insult followed as well. PDF at its best and that's from a supposed "learned and moderate" person (PDF standards once again). A joke.

Also that individual does not understand that veils in the ancient world (Arab world, Iran, Rome, Greece) were common but there is a long way from that and to be claiming falsehood such as burqa being an Arabian tradition when that is not the case. Something that almost all evidence points at including most historical information in this regard. Asking any serious historian that studies pre-Islamic Arabia/Arab world will testify to this.

 

[M. Sarmad]

So,can we say the origin of the burqa is debatable?

Yes it is debatable. But one thing we can say with certainty is that it is a cultural thing rather than religious. Practices such as veiling were considered social customs and not part of Islam until the rise of Political Islam.

How old are you?

So that's your best argument ??

 

[T-123456]

Yes it is debatable. But one thing we can say with certainty is that it is a cultural thing rather than religious. Practices such as veiling were considered social customs and not part of Islam until the rise of Political Islam.

Thats what i was thinking because when we look at Asia's clothing style for women,it was all colorful until the burqa came.
Pakistan,India(Muslims)Afghanistan,Kazakistan,Iran,Kirgizistan,Oezbekistan,Turkmenistan,China(Muslims) etc,all colorful.

 

[Luffy 500]

are you kidding me. The member @Zulfiqar1919 post got deleted and he got banned for just criticizing china? even though by the looks of it it was totally within forum rules unless even innocuous constructive criticism of china is banned on PDF. Some pakistanis and definitely many mods here have lost it when it comes to china. WHere's your sense of justice? Where's the consistency? I just hope ordinary Pakistani Muslims are NOT so insensitive and blind to justice. Funny people criticizing @Zulfiqar1919 are idiotically bringing KSA here? WHere is the connection of KSA in all this? Indeed nationalism and chauvanism is haram and a muslim can NOT be a nationalist. A pakistani nationalist's very ideology demands defending chinese atrocities where as a Muslim's loyalty is to first & foremost Islam and the Muslim ummah. (I am pretty sure my post will be deleted as well. Its beyond me why even online criticism of china is not tolerated here. Does PDF actually thinks such criticism would effect bilateral relations with china - hilarious to say the least if that's the case)

@Zarvan @Apprentice @Malik Abdullah @Mrc @dsr478

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Thats what i was thinking because when we look at Asia's clothing style for women,it was all colorful until the burqa came.
Pakistan,India(Muslims)Afghanistan,Kazakistan,Iran,Kirgizistan,Oezbekistan,Turkmenistan,China(Muslims) etc,all colorful.

So traditional female clothing (just a small glimpse) from modern-day KSA (let alone other parts of Arabia and the Arab world) such as those below are not colorful? IMO they are more colorful than most other traditional clothing. Arab traditional clothing is one of the most colorful and rich there is.

More below:

Oasis Unedited: Mansoojat: The Virtual Museum of #Saudi Arabia's Traditional Costumes > Featured in Oasis Magazine

Lastly there is zero evidence of burqa (a word of non-Arabic origin and which derives from the Farsi Purdah) and which is not worn today anywhere in the Arab world let alone previously, has its origin in Arabia when most women in KSA (non-nobility) did not wear any headscarfs at all as practically most sources confirm. I posted a few in this thread alone.

Do you think that world famous ancient Arab queens such as Queen Zenobia, Queen Sheba etc. wore a burqa/niqab?

Do some of the pre-Islamic Arabian goddesses (belonging to ancient pre-Abrahamic (themselves Semitic) Semitic pagan religions shared by most Semites in pre-Islamic/Christianity/Judaims, wear any burqa let alone a niqab? Not even close either.

Al-Uzza:



Al-Lat:



Other ones:

 

[M. Sarmad]

Thats what i was thinking because when we look at Asia's clothing style for women,it was all colorful until the burqa came.
Pakistan,India(Muslims)Afghanistan,Kazakistan,Iran,Kirgizistan,Oezbekistan,Turkmenistan,China(Muslims) etc,all colorful.

Yes, Thanks to the likes of Ibne abdulWahhab Najadi, Maulana Maududi, Hassan Al Banna, Sayyid Qutb, Khomeini etc. that we (the Muslims) are where we are.

 

[T-123456]

So traditional female clothing (just a small glimpse) from modern-day KSA (let alone other parts of Arabia and the Arab world) such as those below are not colorful? IMO they are more colorful than most other traditional clothing. Arab traditional clothing is one of the most colorful and rich there is.

More below:

Oasis Unedited: Mansoojat: The Virtual Museum of #Saudi Arabia's Traditional Costumes > Featured in Oasis Magazine

Lastly there is zero evidence of burqa (a word of non-Arabic origin and which derives from the Farsi Purdah) and which is not worn today anywhere in the Arab world let alone previously, has its origin in Arabia when most women in KSA (non-nobility) did not wear any headscarfs at all as practically most sources confirm. I posted a few in this thread alone.

Do you think that world famous ancient Arab queens such as Queen Zenobia, Queen Sheba etc. wore a burqa/niqab?

Do some of the pre-Islamic Arabian goddesses (belonging to ancient pre-Abrahamic (themselves Semitic) Semitic pagan religions shared by most Semites in pre-Islamic/Christianity/Judaims, wear any burqa let alone a niqab? Not even close either.

Al-Uzza:



Al-Lat:

Maybe you didnt understand that we are talking about the burqa,you dont have to show me the clothing style of your country,its not about that.
Lets keep it to the burqa,what is the origin?

 

[The Sandman]

Yes, Thanks to the likes of Ibne abdulWahhab Najadi, Maulana Maududi, Hassan Al Banna, Sayyid Qutb, Khomeini etc. that we (the Muslims) are where we are.

Azlan can you shed some light on nationalism and Islam? is it haram to be a nationalist?

note: for me nationalism is Pakistan and Pakistanis first no racism or feelings of a superior being.

 

[waz]

Folks the topic is about Ramadan in China lol.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Maybe you didnt understand that we are talking about the burqa,you dont have to show me the clothing style of your country,its not about that.
Lets keep it to the burqa,what is the origin?

I understand very well what this discussion is about.

I am showing you a small glimpse of the traditional clothing of KSA. Burqa, which is not a word of Arabic origin but originates from the Farsi Pardah/Purdah, is paraded by some here as being native to KSA or a traditional clothing native to Arabia/Arab world. This is not true and I have posted plenty of references from very respected sources (I think I have posted 5-6 sources in total).

Not only that I posted descriptions (actual real ones) of ancient pre-Islamic/Christian/Jewish Arabian/Arab/Semitic Goddesses. None of which are depicted wearing any burqa or niqab but a simple veil and sometimes not even that. What does that tell you, that the supposed most revered female deities do not wear something that was supposedly worn by almost every Arabian/Arab women in pre-Islamic times?

You can take a look at the posts that I have written in this thread and the references that I have posted, once again from highly respected sources and figure out where burqa (tradition of it) originates from. Ancient Iran is the answer.

However veils, which as I wrote were commonly worn in the ancient world in the Arab world, Iran, Rome, Greece and everywhere else, originate in ancient Assyria. At least the first well-known description is from Assyrian texts and depictions of veils. 1300 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil

See reference 4 and 5.

That's (veils) is an entirely different discussion though as women in pre-Islamic Arabia (just like anywhere else in the ancient world) did wear veils but not all did that. It was mostly restricted to the nobility and upper classes and the veils worn resemble our traditional dresses and not anything that resembles a niqab let alone a burqa that is not worn anywhere in the Arab world but mostly Afghanistan, Pakistan and previously in Iran (as early as the Qajar dynasty).

Evidence of this:



Antoin Sevruguin, Two Veiled Women and a Child. Late 19th century, Qajar. Brooklyn Museum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa...iled_Women_and_a_Child_-_Antoin_Sevruguin.jpg

As for burqas being worn in Afghanistan and Pakistan (mostly by Pashtuns - an Iranic speaking people), there is no need for me to prove that as a simple Google search will be enough.

 

[T-123456]

I am showing you a small glimpse of the traditional clothing of KSA. Burqa, which is not a word of Arabic origin but originates from the Farsi Pardah/Purdah, is paraded by some here as being native to KSA or a traditional clothing native to Arabia/Arab world. This is not true and I have posted plenty of references from very respected sources (I think I have posted 5-6 sources in total).

So which one of these are worn in the KSA?
Lets just end the discussion here,we went off topic.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

View attachment 399988
So which one of these are worn in the KSA?

In KSA, depending on the region (the country is the size of Western Europe and the many historical regions and modern-day provinces have their own traditions and it also depends on the family, clan, tribe etc.) niqab's (not a burqa) are worn and simple hijab. Only an abaya (not the headscarf) is obligatory in public in KSA. This is a relatively new thing as are most of the moronic laws in KSA such as ban on women driving which is a law that does not exist on paper mind you. All after the 1979 hijacking of Makkah, "Islamic" revolution in Iran etc. Those laws are 25-30 years old and will soon belong in the trash bin if the current development continues.
For instance in areas of Hijaz local Saudi Arabian women do not hear any headscarfs but only the mandatory abaya. Just like it being common to see non-Muslim expats only wearing an abaya like I already posted an example of in post 95.

Filipino expats in KSA:



Burqa has nothing to do with KSA or the Arab world. Historically and even today where it is only worn (nowadays) in Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan and most recently in neighboring Iran (Qajar period) before the Shah under Western influence tried to modernize Iran, end tribalism etc. The backlash to this behavior was the "Islamic revolution" in 1979.

@Azlan Haider

The only idiot here is you. I understood perfectly well what you wrote. Nothing complicated. Complicated is the Master's thesis that I am writing in chemical engineering. Secondly I already disproved your nonsense theories for all to see using 5-6 references from very respected sources, including visual proof, supremacist Pakistani idiot.