Muslim Philosopher Says Islam Has Given Birth To Monsters, Needs Reform

[scholseys]

This philosopher needs a Muslim beard rather than a fashionable one before being taken seriously

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Any post that refutes the OP point by point? I don't see any.

 

[DesiGuy]

Believing that my religion promotes good is a problem?


I did bring one thing new, maybe you'd have seen it if you bothered to read it - The corruption of the definitions of good and bad .That's an actual problem - not my mindset. I'm all for reformation of MUSLIMS, I just deny that Islam is wrong. Many Muslims are wrong, Islam is not. And Turkey, for example, is worlds apart from Nigeria. Both are Muslim countries but they are completely different. Islam has nothing to do with their problems, just like Christianity has nothing to do with American school shootings. The more you highlight and target Islam, the further away you are from the truth.

no...believing that it only promotes good.
Don't take my posts as directed for you only...There are lot worse out there. As vcheng has pointed out on many occasions, that islam is what muslims practices..not what they claim. Islam labels other religions as corrupted and itself the superior religion. That in my book is wrong.
you can't have reforms of muslims unless you close loopholes in islam that lets mullahs take full advantage.
Can't compare american school shootings to muslims beheadings and suicide bombings as the latter one is motivated by religious fellows.

 

[Dubious]

Any post that refutes the OP point by point? I don't see any.

Lets say a carpenter comes in the news and says he is a surgeon and talks about surgery how it kills people.....How much discussion can you do on such an article?

 

[k_arura]

Believing that my religion promotes good is a problem?


I did bring one thing new, maybe you'd have seen it if you bothered to read it - The corruption of the definitions of good and bad .That's an actual problem - not my mindset. I'm all for reformation of MUSLIMS, I just deny that Islam is wrong. Many Muslims are wrong, Islam is not. And Turkey, for example, is worlds apart from Nigeria. Both are Muslim countries but they are completely different. Islam has nothing to do with their problems, just like Christianity has nothing to do with American school shootings. The more you highlight and target Islam, the further away you are from the truth.

Oh really? Please do tell me why.

You are acting like a Physicist (I think its true story) who was very attached to a theory because of its aesthetic qualities, beautiful math etc. etc. But it had just one flaw, just one. It was WRONG. It was invalidated by experiments. You can cling to whatever you want to and say "if only people will follow true ***** blah blah blah" but thats nothing more than wishful thinking. This may be help you make this "jump"

.

Good/Bad is a very very shallow view to look at things especially religion. I find that the gap between practice and theory in Islam is the LARGEST amongst all religions.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Some fair points; some very fair points. Others - not so much !

So far the most relevant post.

Its just the nature of things; Islam is the new Communism of our times - It needs to be demonized otherwise how else will the McCarthys of the world galvanize public support ?

Are there problems with the Muslim World ? Yes....severe problems....heaps of problems in fact; do we have a monopoly over foOking up - Not by a long shot !

Not really. Communism was seen entirely and universally as a pariah in the 'Free' World. Islam is not. In fact the mainstream discourse tries to carve a difference between 'the vast majority of Muslims' and 'fringe radical group'. During the Cold War, all good Communists were dead Communists ... and vice versa.

Lets say a carpenter comes in the news and says he is a surgeon and talks about surgery how it kills people.....How much discussion can you do on such an article?

Depends on the questions the carpenter asks actually. At times critical observations from laymen HAVE driven great revolutions. Hell, all revolutionaries have been 'non-technical' people.

 

[DesiGuy]

This philosopher needs a Muslim beard rather than a fashionable before being taken seriously

haha...i like this one! made me chuckle.

 

[Dubious]

Depends on the questions the carpenter asks actually. At times critical observations from laymen HAVE driven great revolutions. Hell, all revolutionaries have been 'non-technical' people.

Yes all that is fine but if this layman has not much knowledge of surgery except watching grey's anatomy...How many people will waste time in listening to his "observation" about how surgery kills??

 

[TankMan]

no...believing that it only promotes good.

My religion only promotes good - people do wrong, and that makes them wrong according to me and my religion. I believe in only good and I believe in my religion. I did not find anything conflicting with these two beliefs. If you are a good person, you can be a good Muslim and be a good human at the same time. But If you're a bad person, you will be violent regardless of religion.

As vcheng has pointed out on many occasions

Sorry, who?

islam is what muslims practices..not what they claim.

True, fine, I agree with that. That would mean that Islam is what the 99% of Muslims who have never murdered anyone or committed a crime of any sort, practice. Now please don't bring stuff about 'silent majority' or any of that other stuff here, that's just wrong and I am sick of refuting those kinds of fallacious arguments.

You need to start thinking of terrorists as terrorists and Muslims as Muslims, the two are different things. Some terrorists are Muslim doesn't mean all Muslims are terrorists.

Islam labels other religions as corrupted and itself the superior religion.

Every single religion or belief on Earth believes that other people are wrong. If I was to believe that I am right but that guy is right too and that other guy with contradictory beliefs is right too, what's the point of believing?

Here the school shooting part comes in. Terrorists are mentally ill murderers, just like the school shooters. Both are wrong. Terrorists aren't terrorists because of Islam. They're terrorists because of politics or mental illness (caused by living in war zones [the Iraq wars were all political, for example, nothing to do with religion there] for too long)or whatever.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Yes all that is fine but if this layman has not much knowledge of surgery except watching grey's anatomy...How many people will waste time in listening to his "observation" about how surgery kills??

How about improvising by using a chainsaw while amputating on the battlefield when the doctor's tools are not working? I am just saying that the credentials of a person is secondary if the questions asked are valid. Besides the questions asked are simple and echo many millions of people around the world. It is up to you to decide if you wish to answer them (like, say Majid Nawaz) or shut them up with the threat of labelling people as Islamophobic/racist and that 'That is not Islam'(like Reza). Now don't pick on the examples, they are just examples. They can be anyone else for that matter.

There is one way to combat the questions - by shooting the messenger.
But the questions asked are genuine and need to be answered. They can also be ignored, surely. I am afraid you are doing the latter.

Now see, some points -

1. Had this thread been on Pakistan or ME, I would not have at all. But it's about faith, hence my participation.
2. I have read about the dark ages of Hinduism and can draw countless parallels, the reform movements etc.
3. Hence my observations.

 

[Dubious]

Honestly speaking thesea re the only few points that make sense:

wrote that believing Muslims cannot avoid a discussion of the causes of jihadi excesses by merely denouncing terrorist barbarism. He says that in the face of the dogmas and political manipulation to which it is being subjected, the Muslim world must be self-critical, and must act to reform itself.

- mere repetition of what the media has been screaming over and over....
If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

^^ The lie can be substituted with an idea or a story

But worst of all is that I see that you are losing yourself, losing your time and your honor, in your refusal to recognize that this monster is born of you, of your irresoluteness, of your contradictions, of your being torn between past and present, of your perpetual inability to find your place in human civilization.

He is blaming everyday Muslims who do not even think that far but like other Human beings work go home and in between the only difference they do is pray 5 times a day and fast during Ramadan....

I am not sure how these people who live among many others can even remotely be considered with the inability to find a place?

"What, indeed, do you say when faced with this monster? You shout, 'That's not me!' 'That's not Islam!' You reject [the possibility] that this monster's crimes are committed in your name (#NotInMyName). You rebel against the monster's usurpation of your identity, and of course you are right to do so. It is essential that you proclaim to the world, loud and clear, that Islam condemns barbarity. But this is absolutely not enough! For you are taking refuge in your self-defense reflex, without realizing it, and, above all, without taking responsibility to self-criticize. You become indignant and are satisfied with that – but you are missing an historical opportunity to question yourself. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself, you accuse others: 'You Westerners, and all you enemies of Islam – stop associating us with this monster! Terrorism is not Islam! The true Islam, the good Islam doesn't mean war, it means peace!'"

Doesnt everyone shout and distant themselves from a white man with a psychopathic intuition to kill? Dont they say not all whites are evil?

Dont Indians do the same when rape thing came through that not all Indians are rapist

Dont male as a general object to women covering saying not all male are animals?

Then why isnt the same applicable or should I say "enough" for Muslims? Why must Muslims need an extra bonus effort??


Just because the Western world has dissociated with religion coz of what the pope did - going around killing people or what Hitler did going around killing people, do they want to shove the same scenario down Muslims? How is that different from the Mullah shoving his mentality down other people's throats? Both West and Mullah are doing the same....at least it shows that way!

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Every single religion or belief on Earth believes that other people are wrong

Incorrect.
All the Dharmic faiths and other Oriental faiths donot believe in the superiority of themselves, but the recognition of the fact that all are equally valid and lead to the same goal. Often called Moksha/Nirvana/etc.

 

[Dubious]

I am just saying that the credentials of a person is secondary if the questions asked are valid.

IF big IF there....

Besides the questions asked are simple and echo many millions of people around the world.

Alot of garbage also echos in those who joined ISIS....you do realize majority isnt always right?

It is up to you to decide if you wish to answer them (like, say Majid Nawaz) or shut them up with the threat of labelling people as Islamophobic/racist and that 'That is not Islam'(like Reza). Now don't pick on the examples, they are just examples. They can be anyone else for that matter.

Reza Aslan actually has degrees to back himself (you dont study for soo many years for nothing)! No idea who Majid Nawaz is....so you are bringing in people who went to jail? interesting

There is one way to combat the questions - by shooting the messenger.

No one is shooting the msger but questioning why solomon picks blogs over articles? He some how missed the article where 100 plus (yea 100 people) signed and wrote a whole report about how ISIS is doing nothing related to Islam.....

How was that missed? And how was that not analyzed at all? Never to be brought up again? how many read that? while this 1 guy and many others like him says rubbish and every tom dick and harry forms a crowd around him?

Just questioning what is accessed? what one says (be it truth or false) or what one says (based on what is selling like hot cakes)??

 

[DesiGuy]

Incorrect.
All the Dharmic faiths and other Oriental faiths donot believe in the superiority of themselves, but the recognition of the fact that all are equally valid and lead to the same goal. Often called Moksha/Nirvana/etc.

i don't know what he is trying to achieve by saying "Hey...everyone else does too"...but i am gonna take a guess. He don't see anything wrong in labeling other religion as corrupted and his as superior. then you wonder, why islam has issues with every other religion in world.

 

[jaunty]

The first step of solving any problem is the realization that you have a problem.