Muslim Philosopher Says Islam Has Given Birth To Monsters, Needs Reform

[Jaanbaz]

We non-Muslims are tired of hearing that.

It is amazing to us that you are not tired of saying that to us instead of saying it to those Muslims who are performing forced conversions of non-Muslims. You telling us that does NOT help us. Your words of 'no compulsion in religion' directed at us does not deflect the Sword of Islam that is threatening our necks. If anything, your preach of 'no compulsion in religion' to us only encourage the wielders of the Sword of Islam because they know that if you try to preach to them, they would cut of your head to the tune of 'Allahu Akbar', which in turn frightened you enough that it is safer to self righteously preach to the nonbelievers than to the believers.

It is amazing that the Muslims would preach 'no compulsion in religion' to those who actually live 'no compulsion in religion' as if we need reinforcement about that.

Because its the teachings of Quran. I will say what's in the Quran. Neither I'm scared to talk against Islamism which is basically a from of political activism which has hijacked Islam for its own agendas.

I will continue to speak out when all Muslims are called terrorists. When a Somali stabs someone in London, the headlines reads Muslim stabs man. When a White male stabs someone the headlines says man stabs man. You see the hypocrisy? So I will continue to say whatever I wish to say.

I have always spoken against persecution of any minorities in Muslim countries. Don't expect me to raise arms and kill the extremists ones because then there is no difference between me and them. I try my best to convince mislead youths to understand that what extremists are doing is damaging Islam. They are not holy warriors of Islam but rather a stain.

The extremists Muslims or terrorists or whatever you wish to call them are the biggest enemy of Muslims like me. You wouldn't know, You live safely in your countries and watch news on CNN where you form your opinion. Most of Pakistanis have have family members or friends who were victim to these extremists. Before taking a higher moral ground think about actually reading up on what you are going to do. CNN or Fox news does not count as reliable source. Cheers.

Just yesterday the local Muslim community raised money for Poppy appeal in remembrance of the fallen heroes of United Kingdom.

 

[Judge]

I understand that Non Muslims will judge Islam from the actions of its believers which is unfortunately haven't been very good. But all the focus is on the extremist Muslims but not on hundreds of millions of Muslims living around the world peacefully until ofcourse USA comes to give them democracy and freedom bombs.

That is the long and short of it.
Thankyou for your honesty.

And I do agree, that there is a large percentage of Muslims(in hundreds of millions) who are not extremist, but their failure lies in controlling their extremist parts of the population, and it will be held against them.

The same way that a large percentage of Germans never agreed to genocide of Jews, but actions of those who did, had consequences for the rest of the Germans as well. There are countless such cases in history.

 

[gambit]

Oh he is. A better educated counterpart of @Zarvan .
Twisting the words to equate aspects which are poles apart. Essentially the kind that provides the 'intellectual justification' for what many Muslims like Talib do.

Introspection is not the Muslims' strong suit. But paying lip service to it -- is.

It is an ages old fact and truth that perceptions comes from observations. It is a fact and truth in both the hard and soft sciences, and human societies are no different. The non-Muslims are justifiably confused. When we pointed out how offensive it is the idea of forced conversions, it is we, not the Muslims who performed those forced conversions, who received the barrage of 'no compulsion in religion' admonitions, as if the burden of responding to those forced conversions belongs to us, and not to the Muslims community at large.

But my take on it is this: Regardless of how a person became a Muslim, the more numerous the Islamists, of any stripe and any degree of intensities of devotion, the better the Muslims feel good about themselves and their religion. It is an intellectual lollipop that each Muslim must have in order for each to have a justification in this life. All sugar and no vitamins.

 

[Developereo]

This assumption is flawed. These laws have not been enacted because the Rulers or Politicians wanted it but because they thought it would bring them political benefits. The political benefits are derived from the population.

It is intellectual dishonesty on your part to wish away and divorce the laws from the society that produces them. If the Muslims believed in 'there is no compulsion in religion' then they would have asked their rulers or elected heads to remove these bigoted laws. Instead they dont ask...or those who want these laws massively outnumber those who dont.

In both cases, yes, Muslims do care and do want these laws. They do find that their religion wants these laws. And therefore the Governments do make and keep these laws.

And so..if someone comes online and says Islam says 'there is no compulsion in religion', he will be called out for trying to mislead the non-Muslims, because it is evident that this is merely to whitewash what 99.99% of Muslim countries are doing by saying that what they are doing is not Islam.

You are welcome to continue believing whatever you want, but most people in society -- Muslim or otherwise -- are apathetic. Voting levels are abysmally low. Even in countries with mandatory voting, like Australia, the voting process is seen by most people as a necessary chore. Most people just vote along party lines and get it over with.

The fact is that policies at the national level are decided by influential power brokers. The ordinary person only has the illusion of relevance.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

The prophet did say that there will be a point in time were literacy will increase but religious knowledge will decrease. Now with the Quran people just quote a few versus of the book and then judge the entire religion by that. Instead of reading the entire book and taking the totally to find an answer. Most people don't even use the right methodology to study the Quran not even Muslims. Look at isis.

 

[Norwegian]

My point is that all this talk about Christians, Jews and others being "reformed" is a lot of bull faeces.

Is it? Try here:
Reform Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now where is reform equivalent of Islam? The closest you come across reform Muslims are Qadianis. But hey, we don't even "consider" their beliefs Islamic even when they say that they still believe in prophet Muhammad (PBUH), one god Allah and all other major tenants of Islam except the finality of prophethood in Islam as their interpretation of it is different than other traditional Islamic sects:
Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because of such different interpretation of one single issue, our so-called ulemas kicked Qadianis out of Islamic Ummah by enacting Blasphemy Laws of 1974 and later Ordinance XX during Zia's regime. That clearly shows the level of ignorance and resistance to reform any traditional thoughts and views in Islamic society such as Pakistan. Rest of the Muslim countries are no better.

I appreciate your command of the English. I hope you wont mind if I request you to learn Arabic with the same zeal and try to go through Islamic books. I am sure you'll get to see things more positively than you currently do.

Funny. Just because he defeated you in rational arguments, you troll him to study 'Arabic' just to ensure he becomes somehow "positive" of Islamic bigotry?

there is nothing wrong in reforming , but cheap shots like this are nothing new us , you want to be famous , write a book insulting islam and their Prophets , and you will be more famous than brett pitt , within nights , and who know you will get next noble along with " Sir " title ...

What a stupid trollish post. You can also get very famous by writing a good book that refutes Western criticisms of Islamic dogma. But of course that needs hard work and an IQ above 100 which most Muslims do not have anymore due to centuries of inbreeding.

Nah we're not reforming. The fact that 99.9% of us are willing to follow properly means that Islam doesn't need reform

Yes, it also proves the true level of ignorance and bigotry in traditional Muslim societies.

We are told that Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism have "reformed". All that says is that the more militant wings of these ideologies have been forced to focus their energies away from fratricide and towards nonbelievers.

Really? Show me one army, militia or other terror group that kills innocents in the name of their religion or proudly brands themselves as followers of Moses or Jesus while beheading their opponents?

I would say it is the Zionist policy, which they are implementing using America's enormous power as leverage, to destroy and demonize Israel's enemies.

So you think indigenous Israeli defense industries is junk like Pakistan, Iran, Turkey?
Defense industry of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is this the reason why so many countries including US is buying these state-of-the-art defensive technologies from Israel instead of Muslim countries?

ZAB made a deal with the religious power brokers because he was having trouble delivering on his promises of "Roti, kapra, aur makaan". Once again, a failure of governance gets cloaked as an Islamic issue.

Let's say IK fails to deliver his promises in KPK, he might as well join hands with Islamists and start Jihad against Pakistani minorities? How many Pakistanis would actually buy this sort of crap? No one! Its not 1974, but 2014.

All above mentioned were geatest Astronomers, mathematicians and physicists of there time....

Where are these great people now in the Muslim world, thanks to Taqlid and loss of Ijtihad.

Can you at least show me the number who actively practice or "followers" of any other religion?

Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs etc actively practice their respective religions. Why are we Muslims so obsessed with this phony superiority complex that only "we" are the true followers of the "right" religion? We are only 1.6 billion in total. Hardly a majority. Chinese and Indians alone outnumber us in population.

Also can you show me the stats on how much one receives for reporting on different religions and how reporting on Israel gains you labelled of course you can protest "when in season" but not otherwise...

What has this to do with the discussion on hand? Go visit some Zionist news sites such as Jpost and read the talkbacks of Jews who complain all the time why their conflict with Palestine gets so much international media coverage, while other conflicts in the same regions such as ISIS, Syria does not! If Jews control all the worlds media, as Muslims believe, why so much international coverage of Israeli war crimes in Gaza and West Bank? Self-contradictions?

No political ideology doesnt regulate more than politics while a deen or a way of life regulates from the cradle to the grave ....

Islam is the only world religion that projects itself as a totalitarian one. Read the ideology of that "great" Islamist Maulana Maududi who is admired by millions of Pakistanis alone. He was the one who coined the terms like 'Islamic State' and 'Islamic Revolution' which hopefully didn't materialize in his homeland due to lack of support but elsewhere in Iran, Iraq and Syria
Abul A'la Maududi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many of these who are in ISIS were brought up like that?

Its not the question of numbers but of ideology itself. It doesn't matter how many Muslim terrorists joined ISIS or how many sympathizes with its leadership. Question remains that why is there such a barbaric, medieval ideology still surviving in this modern age of science and enlightenment? Unless it is dealt with once and for all, it WILL find its new homes elsewhere in the future. See the spread of Al-Qaeda to Africa (Boko Haram and Al-Shabab) once that was explicitly an Afghan jihadist organization. Muslims of the world didn't retaliate collectively against that Islamist terror organization, and now we have its branches all over the world despite the death of its founder

If you search up....MOST are new converts (meaning they were not brought up in that sense)

LOL. What a straw-man argument coming from you! Converts or home-grown terrorists, fact remains that it is a kind of Islamic ideology that is used to brainwash innocent people into behaving like mindless killers in the name of Allah!

Others like the self proclaimed Khalifah has pix of him in night clubs circulating the web...Just do your homework

What? Please elaborate.

I sense you are trying to envelope everyone under the umbrella of certain breed raised in UK.....

No idea what you are talking about.

I was born in Karachi since the age of 2 I have been outisde Pakistan everywhere from extreme Muslim country like Saudi to multicultural Muslim country like Malaysia to Christian yet not openly declaring like UK and am currently in Europe I think I would be in a better position to tell you what is and not a total failure!

Islam is a complete failure, especially in the Middle East. Once that was called cradle of civilisations (Syria and Iraq) is today in ruins, despite the presence of vast amounts of natural resources like oil and gas. Instead of investing this large quantities of wealth and money on human development of their people, these Saudis, Qataris, Iraqis, Egyptians etc invested it to spread their radical brands of Islam all over the world, turning the minds of innocent Muslims into Zombies. It happened during and after Afghan Jihad, Iranian Revolution and continues to do so through this day. And then they blame Israel or US for being "responsible" of current sectarian mess that they themselves helped to create by their moronic policies.

How many people in Norway fill the churches on Sunday? Heck how many fill the churches in any of the European countries? How many adhere to the bible?

Does it matter? Hassan Nisar, famous Pakistani senior analyst, visited Norway last year. He was so impressed with our way of life here and commented that only difference between heaven and Norway is that in heaven people never die, while here people die after reaching a certain natural age:

He also commented that churches here are desolate BECAUSE these people have made their life their religion. They do not lie, cheat, steal, defraud their own people. In other words, so-called "godless" people here follow more core values of religion in real-life than Muslims do in their corrupt, self-contradictory and hypocritic societies.

In Pakistan, mosques are jam-packed during sermons and prayers, yet in the same nation charity saints like Edhi gets robbed in broad daylight. We are collectively champions of corruption, illiteracy, bigotry and falsehoods. Our economics have failed as well as our social fabric of the society. No wonder why these godless Western nations reach the top of Islamicity Index while Muslim majority Malaysia came at 33rd place, still behind Jewish State of Israel
Islamicity Index: Malaysia leads other Islamic nations at 33 | Astro Awani

You are comparing Christian by name to Practicing Muslims to born Muslims (people who dont know any other way but just follow coz their mom told them so not coz they chose to be so)

I have seen many practicing Christians here. They are a minority but they still exist; go to church every sunday, celebrate all Christian festivals with glory of the Christ. Yet, none of them are radical enough to kill anyone who voluntarily leaves their religion as is the case with apostasy in Muslim lands. Imagine the state of so-called Islamic nations if punishment for apostasy was banned. Imagine how many LESS practicing Muslims would be around if compulsion 'to remain in the cult or be killed' was removed?

When you learn the differences between these you will see the different things practiced under the Islam hood and also you will notice Islam ISNT breeding any of that you claim!

Oh sure it does. Haven't you seen what these practicing Muslims are doing in Western countries? They are evading taxes, lying to authorities in order to receive maximum social benefits, sending money to their former homelands via illegal methods and so on. Muslims in Western countries are NOT living like angels if this is what you believe. They came here from a corrupt society and all they did was that they corrupted this comparatively corruption free society! No local norwegian ever heard the term tax-evader until a big Taxi-company was caught which hired mostly immigrants from Pakistan

I have been "exposed" to it since birth...from Adhan in my ears the day I was born ....Believe me I am not your ordinary bimbo...Isnt it they associate blondes with that word not Muslims or something

LOL. You know it is considered very racist to say such things like bimbo to blondes. Average Nordic person has an IQ of 100 or above. Compare it to the broader Muslim world which never even reaches close to 90! Its all about IQ stupid!

Good to know what you see from your narrow outlook...None of ours or anyone's business just yours alone!

Better to be alone and right than be wrong but get backing of majority of idiots. Most great thinkers that humanity has produced were hated by their societies during their lifetime, and only after they died or became old, that they were celebrated as heroes.

There is a saying what you see is not always the truth....there are always 2 sides to a coin....Try looking at the other side too..

I have seen all sides of Islam, and believe me, its not very bright on either side. Sufism had once a real potential to become salvation of Islam, but our greatest Sufi saints died long time ago and none of their followers took their place as true saints as they became corrupt by time and age.

I beg to differ....Islam doesnt need reforming Muslims and humans do...Islam was introduced to humans to reform them but if human prefer their culture (which is way older than Islam) or prefer their attitude (which is similar to Satan's pride) and dont take the reforming religion (Islam) then stop blaming Islam ..

LOL. At times you sound really ridiculous! Yes, Islam came as a salvation to humanity's social, economic, spiritual problems. And it DID bring that salvation for a time being, especially during and 30 years after Prophet Muhammad's (SAW) death. But from there on, Islam has only brought death and destruction, not only to its followers, but also to the followers of other faiths.
Eternal sectarian strife between Shiites and Sunnis is to this day spilling the blood of innocent Muslims all over the world. If we could not collectively figure and sort out our differences for the past 1400 years peacefully, what makes you think we just might this time or ever in the future? Islam war meant to be a universal religion, yet every new convert has to CHOOSE between unlimited number of sects and divisions in Islam. You cannot "just" be a Muslim. You must be Sunni, Shiite, Deobandi, Barelvi and so on... What a farce!

Than this shows only you have no idea off Islam and as for reform no reform is needed or will take place as for these kind off jokers they are off no importance in Muslim world

Go whine some place else. I was born and raised as a Muslim. I know pretty much about Islam, Muslim society and the West than you can even imagine!

 

[syedali73]

The closest you come across reform Muslims are Qadianis.

So now we should invent a new prophet and ask him to reform Islam for us, which we should follow then. Interesting.

 

[VCheng]

LOL. You know it is considered very racist to say such things like bimbo to blondes. Average Nordic person has an IQ of 100 or above. Compare it to the broader Muslim world which never even reaches close to 90! Its all about IQ stupid!

I hope you see the clear irony in what you have said above.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

So now we should invent a new prophet and ask him to reform Islam for us, which we should follow then. Interesting.

Lol that doesn't make sense because Islam says that the LAST prophet was the prophet Muhammad (pbuh). U need to accept that to be a Muslim.

 

[Norwegian]

I hope you see the clear irony in what you have said above.

Yes I know its a very ironic statement. Race is not something visual and perceptive as Nazis thought or some other dumb racists still think. But there is such a thing called intelligence and believe or not, it CAN be measured by scientific analysis such as IQ tests. You can start by reading here, the relation between race and intelligence:
Race and intelligence

 

[VCheng]

Yes I know its a very ironic statement.

As long as you know ......

 

[Norwegian]

So now we should invent a new prophet and ask him to reform Islam for us, which we should follow then. Interesting.

No, what you need is a mujtahid or mujaddid or mahdi or messiah whatever will work if he is intelligent enough to point out ills in the way Islam is practiced today and provide implementable reforms to fix those ills.
Mujaddid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ijtihad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[WaLeEdK2]

Go whine some place else. I was born and raised as a Muslim. I know pretty much about Islam, Muslim society and the West than you can even imagine![/QUOTE]

If u were born and raised in Pakistan u obviously haven't lived in a true Muslim society. What kind of Muslim societies use paper money instead of sunnah money? What kind of leaders do we have? We have leaders hat will sell their religion for worlds gains. Such as that Saudi (I forgot his name) that separated the Hejaz from the caliphate for 7 billion sterling pounds. This is ISLAMIC leadership? There is no such thing as a proper Muslim society anymore. Ever since the caliphate was abolished there hasn't been a proper Muslim society. The caliphate is a way for Muslims to rule over themselves in which they see Allah as Al Malik (the sovereign) not the state as sovereign. The modern secular state comes from Europe which sees the state possessing sovereignty not Allah. This new creation we can now change laws or legalize something that was haram. This is shirk. I don't buy all this isis crap about bringing back the caliphate at all. Why hasn't he talked about this important subject yet? I guarantee he doesn't even know what sunnah money is. In my opinion the caliphate will not be back until Imam Al Mahdi returns and unites the Muslims so there will be no more sectarian conflicts. And if u know Islamic eschatology that day isn't that far away.

 

[Norwegian]

U need to accept that to be a Muslim.

Its just another interpretation. Qadianis do not interpret claims of finality of prophethood in the Koran same way as traditional Muslims do. For them, new non-law bearing prophets can come within Islam as lawless prophets were sent to the Hebrews with Mosaic faith:
Prophethood (Ahmadiyya) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you see its just the matter of interpretation.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

Its just another interpretation. Qadianis do not interpret claims of finality of prophethood in the Koran same way as traditional Muslims do. For them, new non-law bearing prophets can come within Islam as lawless prophets were sent to the Hebrews with Mosaic faith:
Prophethood (Ahmadiyya) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you see its just the matter of interpretation.

Then they are not Muslim are they? You can't call yourself Muslim and then say prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not the last messenger. That's contradictory. That's like me saying I'm Christian and I don't believe Jesus died on the cross.