Muslim Philosopher Says Islam Has Given Birth To Monsters, Needs Reform

[Developereo]

Using the word "West" is a misnomer on your part.
I accept that Israel as a State came into being on religious ground and the war they wage is also for religious convictions.
However if you say US entered Iraq or Afghanistan because its Muslim, you are wrong. You can ascribe reasons like Oil, wealth, military control, etc which are legitimate.

You need to learn about evangelical Christians in the US who are possibly even more hardcore Zionists than are many Jews.

Many Christians believe that Jesus will return to Earth once Jews regroup in Israel, so supporting Israel is a religious duty for them. The evangelicals and the Christian Right are powerful forces in the American political system.

However, how is that in any way related to this post of mine:

I replied to your claim about 'wars between countries' not being related to religious compulsion. I provided examples to the contrary.

 

[Developereo]

So what exactly is your point? I ask you to be blunt.

My point is that all this talk about Christians, Jews and others being "reformed" is a lot of bull faeces. Militant wings in these religious are just as murderous as anyone else. They just use established militaries to carry out their agendas.

Some of them use "culture" as a Trojan horse, as in the example of the Swiss and French laws I mentioned above.

 

[syedali73]

You need to learn about evangelical Christians in the US who are possibly even more hardcore Zionists than are many Jews.

Many Christians believe that Jesus will return to Earth once Jews regroup in Israel, so supporting Israel is a religious duty for them. The evangelicals and the Christian Right are powerful forces in the American political system.

That is exactly what my American friends told me. Atmosphere in academia is different than the rest and people get to talk to each other more openly.

 

[Judge]

You need to learn about evangelical Christians in the US who are possibly even more hardcore Zionists than are many Jews.

I am well aware of Evangelical Christians. Their activities in India are not very savory to say the least.

Many Christians believe that Jesus will return to Earth once Jews regroup in Israel, so supporting Israel is a religious duty for them. The evangelicals and the Christian Right are powerful forces in the American political system.

I replied to your claim about 'wars between countries' not being related to religious compulsion. I provided examples to the contrary.

And so far you have given the example of one country out of the collective 'West' who has fought wars for religion. The rest do so for numerous other reasons - Oil, military presence, influence in the region, other assorted wealth, military economy and many others.
What you are doing is taking a fringe group and extrapolating their views on the actions of US.

My point is that all this talk about Christians, Jews and others being "reformed" is a lot of bull faeces. Militant wings in these religious are just as murderous as anyone else. They just use established militaries to carry out their agendas.

Let me ask simple questions about what reforms here mean:
1. Can I as a Hindu live in US without being legally discriminated against ?
Yes

2. Does the US Government try to discourage the spread of Hinduism in its territory using any legal means?
No.

3. Do I have equal legal rights as any other US citizen of Christian faith ?
Yes.

4. Would the US allow its Christian citizens freedom of Choice regarding choosing their religion and religious practices?
Yes. That means they allow a Christian to convert to my religion and they allow someone from my religion to convert to anything they want.

These same rights are not granted in an overwhelming majority of the Islamic Republics of the World (there maybe one or two exceptions).

These are called reforms. Within the territory of US, the USG provides equality of rights to ITS CITIZENS (note the keyword here - its own Citizens). Does this happen in Islamic republics? And if not, then what exactly is the justification that these Islamic republics give for not giving equality to all people? They cite - you guessed it - Islam!

Should I take the word of bleeding heart liberals on the internet on what Islam is ? Or should I take the actions of an overwhelming number of Muslim nations who all cite the words of highly accomplished and well read Ulemas to justify their laws.

Then the question comes again - Who are some Muslims trying to fool by saying 'there is no compulsion in religion' ? Its certainly not the non-Muslims.
The words of @Jaanbaz and others should (maybe) directed at other Muslims instead of non-Muslims. Practice what you preach.

 

[Developereo]

What you are doing is taking a fringe group and extrapolating their views on the actions of US.

On the contrary, the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC is one of the top three -- often the top -- political lobby in Washington. US foreign policy -- and related actions -- are very much influenced by this lobby.

Let me ask simple questions about what reforms here mean:

I articulated my position in this post: Muslim Philosopher Says Islam Has Given Birth To Monsters, Needs Reform | Page 11

The summary is that rule of law and respect for individual rights will curb extremism. Nothing in Islam runs contrary to those two concepts and implementing them is all the "reformation" that Muslim societies need.

 

[Judge]

On the contrary, the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC is one of the top three -- often the top -- political lobby in Washington. US foreign policy -- and related actions -- are very much influenced by this lobby.



I articulated my position in this post: Muslim Philosopher Says Islam Has Given Birth To Monsters, Needs Reform | Page 11

It's probably best to point you to it rather than repeating myself.

I read it. Interesting post.
If we take your post as assumption - we are back to the same question.
You say that Muslim societies have the problem they do because of lack of governance and lack of respect for laws.

What happens when the laws themselves are bigoted and driven/formulated by an understanding of Islam?

 

[Developereo]

What happens when the laws themselves are bigoted and driven by an understanding of Islam?

Most Muslims are apathetic about these issues. Contrary to contrived opinion polls, most Muslims couldn't care one way or another about most of these matters.

Many of these laws have been enacted as part of power play at high levels. If they changed, 99% of Muslims wouldn't notice or care -- unless some demagog strs up trouble, but then we are back to law enforcement again.

 

[VCheng]

Just wait until ISIS shows up in Pakistan. Then the justifications will become even more tragicomic that what has been said above in this thread. Until the bodies pile up.

 

[Judge]

Most Muslims are apathetic about these issues. Contrary to contrived opinion polls, most Muslims couldn't care one way or another about most of these matters.

Many of these laws have been enacted as part of power play at high levels. If they changed, 99% of Muslims wouldn't notice or care -- unless some demagog strs up trouble, but then we are back to law enforcement again.

This assumption is flawed. These laws have not been enacted because the Rulers or Politicians wanted it but because they thought it would bring them political benefits. The political benefits are derived from the population.

It is intellectual dishonesty on your part to wish away and divorce the laws from the society that produces them. If the Muslims believed in 'there is no compulsion in religion' then they would have asked their rulers or elected heads to remove these bigoted laws. Instead they dont ask...or those who want these laws massively outnumber those who dont.

In both cases, yes, Muslims do care and do want these laws. They do find that their religion wants these laws. And therefore the Governments do make and keep these laws.

And so..if someone comes online and says Islam says 'there is no compulsion in religion', he will be called out for trying to mislead the non-Muslims, because it is evident that this is merely to whitewash what 99.99% of Muslim countries are doing by saying that what they are doing is not Islam.

 

[Judge]

tragicomic .

There is no better word created by man in any language to describe what is happening in this thread.

It is tragicomic.

 

[asad71]

Never heard of this guy before. Sounds like an agent of Christian-Judaism. The genesis of much of what is called "Islamic" extremism has been the work of CIA and Western Intel agencies.

 

[rockstar08]

The Quran's Verses of Violence

Is IS a cult or is IS just Islam and nothing else? Is Inquisition non Christian or is Inquisition Christian?

In all society, there are criminals who kill and need condemn. But in Islamic countries certain crime against minorities are quasi state sanctioned.

In Pakistan, conversion to Islam by rape is tolerated. The pogroms against minorities are not persecuted.

Christian girl, 12, kidnapped, raped and beaten until she converted to Islam | Daily Mail Online
The Rape and Murder of Pakistan’s Christian Children | FrontPage Magazine

dont be ignorant , you failed to provide any source where did islam permit violence and killing of minorities ?? dont tell me about what is happening in Pakistan ,KSA or any other islamic country ... islam has nothing to do with any country ... Islam itself a identity .. and dont forger the WW2 , how many rapes were conducted ?? and what about the jew Halocaut ?? German peoples were very much in favor of Hitler so what is your point of that ?

 

[Vinod2070]

It is intellectual dishonesty on your part to wish away and divorce the laws from the society that produces them. If the Muslims believed in 'there is no compulsion in religion' then they would have asked their rulers or elected heads to remove these bigoted laws. Instead they dont ask...or those who want these laws massively outnumber those who dont.

In fact, in most Muslim societies, the populace demands Shariah implementation as they are led to believe that it has all the solutions.

E.g. This is the Pakistani public opinion on some key issues.

Pakistani Public Opinion | Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project

So yes, the societies get the rulers (and the rules) it deserves. It is intellectual dishonesty (in fact more likely it is denial or worse) and trying to get away from responsibility by refusing to see and acknowledge the obvious.

Some people try to create false equivalence with others to deflect the issue when it is clear that followers of no other religion are doing either anything similar or anything at remotely the same scale.

That too citing a divine inspiration.

 

[Jaanbaz]

@Jaanbaz - While I respect you for the person that you are.

This 'there is no compulsion in religion' seems to be...codswallop.

When almost every single Muslim country in the WORLD has laws which makes it a Crime to leave Islam. Death as punishment for Apostasy is a legal norm in Muslim countries.
This includes the 'Islam ka Qila' Pakistan in which the maximum punishment awarded for leaving Islam is Execution. The discretion on whether or not to award the maximum punishment is upto the Judge.

And I am quite sure that countries like Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - the birthplace of Islam, have Ulemas who are quite qualified to give judgements on what their faith says.

So please. What you are saying is just 'your version of Islam'. Actions speak louder than words. And actions of Islamic Republics around the world are not just loud - they are practically screaming.

Actions of Muslim countries is not according to Islam and Quran. I understand that Non Muslims will judge Islam from the actions of its believers which is unfortunately haven't been very good. But all the focus is on the extremist Muslims but not on hundreds of millions of Muslims living around the world peacefully until ofcourse USA comes to give them democracy and freedom bombs.

There is also no blasphemy laws in Islam. Blasphemy law in Pakistan is inherited from the British Raj. If there was Blasphemy law in Islam then we would have seen large scale execution of hypocrites during the time of Prophet Mohammad(saw). There were many non believers who used to convert to Islam in the day and leave in the night just to mock Islam. Yet there is no record of any executions of such hypocrites. They were left to their own. Their punishment is all ready prescribed in the here after. Muslims were warned from such people but not to go around killing them.

 

[VCheng]

There is no better word created by man in any language to describe what is happening in this thread.

It is tragicomic.

Not just in this thread, but many more besides.