Mountain Strike Corps: A Strategic Audit

[SQ8]

@Hyperion Damn it! I wish I was heading our MoD, tum logon ko seedha kardeta 5 saal ke pehele tenure me. Btw I hear our brother Jalebi just made Mod...remember when we prospected him and marked him as a talent?

He was made that a month ago.
What is important in this perspective is that the damage the Indian military has taken from lax procurement and development policies could not be matched by even the most dedicated of LeT Cadre.

 

[Dillinger]

He was made that a month ago.
What is important in this perspective is that the damage the Indian military has taken from lax procurement and development policies could not be matched by even the most dedicated of LeT Cadre.

That applies for all of us..its our own mistakes and missteps which cut us the deepest, Bhutto sahib and his ham yahaan and woh wahaan mindset for eg. or Rajiv Gandhi's lets plan the IPKF's strategy on a frigging handkerchief..

 

[SQ8]

While I languished and tried to find succor is some oily biryani from this rancid takeaway..someday I am going to string you up..now the customary compliments..the lemur demands it..

YOu

However, I will bookmark your post.. I see an article in the making here. It will definitely top the one the OP posted.

That applies for all of us..its our own mistakes and missteps which cut us the deepest, Bhutto sahib and his ham yahaan and woh yahaan mindset for eg. or Rajiv Gandhi's lets plan the IPKFs strategy on a frigging handkerchief..

You still cant help but give the guy credit for being a hell of a politician.

However, the leadership issue leaves the military hanging in the balance. Not just in times of war, but in peace. Regardless of the exaggeration , some of these delays are borderline criminal negligence that leads to loss of lives.

 

[Dillinger]

YOu

However, I will bookmark your post.. I see an article in the making here. It will definitely top the one the OP posted.



You still cant help but give the guy credit for being a hell of a politician.

However, the leadership issue leaves the military hanging in the balance. Not just in times of war, but in peace. Regardless of the exaggeration , some of these delays are borderline criminal negligence that leads to loss of lives.

Made a slight mistake- edited it out.

Yaara that's the boggling part..I've heard him speak and he did have a charismatic pull..I wager he'd have run circles around a lot of world leaders...one wonders where did all these leaders go..the Bhuttos and Indira Gandhis..for all their flaws they had a certain gravitas unlike say a Rahul Gandhi or a Mr. Dus percent.

It is criminal to say the least. But see here the babu knows that the jawaan will die quietly and no one will murmur...there won't be an anti-war protest (like with Vietnam) when casualties mount up..concerned parents will not have the wherewithal to get dirty with the govt. on issues such as adequate ballistic protection (like in the states during the Af war). No, here the jawaan's life is cheap and the babu can care less..so on and so forth. Top that up with a populace who's general thinking is exposed in comments such as "why build the agnis if we won't launch them right now at Pakistan and China"- there isn't likely to be any meaningful pressure on such matters from the public..they just want a show.

 

[SQ8]

It is criminal to say the least. But see here the babu knows that the jawaan will die quietly and no one will murmur...there won't be an anti-war protest (like with Vietnam) when casualties mount up..concerned parents will not have the wherewithal to get dirty with the govt. on issues such as adequate ballistic protection (like in the states during the Af war). No, here the jawaan's life is cheap and the babu can care less..so on and so forth. Top that up with a populace who's general thinking is exposed in comments such as "why build the agnis if we won't launch them right now at Pakistan at China"- there isn't likely to be any meaningful pressure on such matters from the public..they just want a show.

Well, thats the deal. Life is cheap here.. after all...wasnt that famous(whether true or not) quip made on the Bhopal Tragedy??
The public wants the parades and pomp.. and the motorcycle riders(or sharp Allah Hoos). It cares little for making sure those boys survive... in a way perhaps the idea of Martydom has crept into the subcontinent in the common culture itself... a Shaheed is all that is needed.

Regardless, the requirement of a mountain warfare corps is speed. More so perhaps than any other fighting sphere as the environment is unforgiving for any prolonged march or otherwise. Choppers cannot be relied upon to deliver everything.. even the USMC realized that its vertical envelopment policy was useless unless its main landing force pushed through fast enough.
Here, without adequate infrastructure the idea of spending billions on a Mountain corps seems hollow.
After all.. one cannot expect them to hold out without adequate logistics support and reinforcements.. unless they want a Custers last stand out of them.
There is a pertinent point raised by you on the very difficult prospect of hiding troops movements in that region. The terrain on the Chinese side looks much more road and rail friendly than on the Indian side.

 

[Nishan_101]

YOu

However, I will bookmark your post.. I see an article in the making here. It will definitely top the one the OP posted.



You still cant help but give the guy credit for being a hell of a politician.

However, the leadership issue leaves the military hanging in the balance. Not just in times of war, but in peace. Regardless of the exaggeration , some of these delays are borderline criminal negligence that leads to loss of lives.

Shame on Bhutto!!! People claimed him as the one who broke Pakistan into pieces.

 

[SQ8]

Shame on Bhutto!!! People claimed him as the one who broke Pakistan into pieces.

But Bhutto merely exploited a situation made worse by Ayub Khan..and the policies of his predecessors.

 

[Dillinger]

Well, thats the deal. Life is cheap here.. after all...wasnt that famous(whether true or not) quip made on the Bhopal Tragedy??
The public wants the parades and pomp.. and the motorcycle riders(or sharp Allah Hoos). It cares little for making sure those boys survive... in a way perhaps the idea of Martydom has crept into the subcontinent in the common culture itself... a Shaheed is all that is needed.

Regardless, the requirement of a mountain warfare corps is speed. More so perhaps than any other fighting sphere as the environment is unforgiving for any prolonged march or otherwise. Choppers cannot be relied upon to deliver everything.. even the USMC realized that its vertical envelopment policy was useless unless its main landing force pushed through fast enough.
Here, without adequate infrastructure the idea of spending billions on a Mountain corps seems hollow.
After all.. one cannot expect them to hold out without adequate logistics support and reinforcements.. unless they want a Custers last stand out of them.
There is a pertinent point raised by you on the very difficult prospect of hiding troops movements in that region. The terrain on the Chinese side looks much more road and rail friendly than on the Indian side.

That's the thing.

Now the GOI and MoD are sitting pretty..6 hercs earmarked for the Eastern command..a couple of hundred Dhruvs more to come up and the composite aviation base in WB. More than a dozen ALGs refurbished in AP. All well and good, BUT such robust air-mobility is supposed to enhance the agility of the MSC not be the bedrock of its logistics and ability to get around. That is why in almost any thread referring to the NE and China I have been screaming about SARDP-NE (this site will provide all the pertinent info along with the completion status and maps- SARDP-NE | Ministry of Development of North Eastern Region, North East India).

Now when in the late 2000s the army started clamoring for the MSC it was accepted wisdom that by 2020 the SARDP-NE project would have been completed and the MSC would come online as battle ready just by then. Double whammy so to say, now the project will be completed no sooner than 2025 or so at the current rate. Just this year the GOI finally relented and brought the Japs on board, who were astonished at the skulduggery prevalent in our road building set up.

Terrain is terrain, it gives much and it demands much, its tyranny cannot be avoided by any army on earth. The urban legend arose that the GOI had purposefully delayed the road projects fearing that China might end up using them in the event of an invasion, which as you can well gauge is the sort of BS that leaves one hoping that there is a brand of mouthwash out there strong enough to erase the foul after taste. Now the MSC will still benefit from relatively better infra but for a good half a decade it will technically be unavailable for optimum utilization.

Now one good thing is that the SARDP-NE project along with the idea of converting Keylong-Leh route into a proper all weather road is being fast tracked as the fire underneath the babu's bottom finally got lit...not for the sake of the jawaan or security though..nope the opposition made it into an agenda to show the ruling party as incompetent (rightfully so) and here we go with the bugles blaring.

 

[kurup]

I found the article to be plausible but then I read the following and it got me wondering what kind of weed the writer was on....

Even senior Indian analysts need to realise that they dont have an IB with A-stan.....

Although it's wrong in the scenario according to this thread , he is just quoting the official Indian stance .

 

[cirr]

One mechanized brigade（the 54th）and two mountain brigades（the 52th and the 53th）under the Tibetan Command，plus a few frontiers/border regiments（6，to be exact），are all that China needs and uses to keep the Indian Army in check。

Even if India raises its strength of men to 10 Corps along the Sino-Indian LOC，China would still commit only 20000-30000 soldiers who are considered more enough to deal with any eventuality。

There are more important areas where limited resources can better be put to use。

 

[HariPrasad]

Attack is the best form of defense. We should redesign our stretagy from defensive to offensive. That will make our enemy to think twice before doing any mischief.

 

[Genesis]

The thing I failed to understand, but then I'm not that informed on Indian weapon upgrades, is how India could catch up around 2020. I always hear this date, or around this date. What projects are you doing that makes Indian army a similar force by this time?


China has Y-20, Z-20, improved WZ-10, improved WZ-19, new OICW, new uniform/helmet/vest and all, new light tanks, new MBTs, better pay, better supplies, and better infrastructure, not to mention a Beidou that will capture every inch of the battlefield while turning it into 3D map within hours of the operation, and satellite communications and stuff and I'm forgetting a few more.

From what I can see of India, a new rifle, a few new American helicopters, not enough for one division, much less a couple, a few globemasters, a new MBT, Apache, new light combat heli?, a limited satellite system?, I also heard India is developing a medium transport next after Tejas?, and I'm thinking more?

Most of these improvements are not enough in number, especially the imported ones, then the basic infantry combat gear will at best caught up to current Chinese standards, which will soon be replaced for 2019 or 2021(big parade for the country, it usually means change in uniform and other things), in terms of communication, no contest, at least not before 2030(not sure what the plan is but it could happen), MBT looks good, but how many will you have and how useful is it in mountain warfare.

What am I missing? Are there a few plans for new gear that I'm missing? But if I'm more or less right, then the difference won't decrease but increase, and not by a little.

 

[HariPrasad]

Two mechanized brigades under the Tibetan Command，plus a few frontiers/border regiments，are all that China needs and uses to keep the Indian Army in check。

Few fires of brahmos on bridges connecting china and Tibet is all we need to cut off chinese supply to chinese troop in Tibet. Than we can do what ever we like to Chinese forces in Tibet.

 

[applesauce]

The thing I failed to understand, but then I'm not that informed on Indian weapon upgrades, is how India could catch up around 2020. I always hear this date, or around this date. What projects are you doing that makes Indian army a similar force by this time?


China has Y-20, Z-20, improved WZ-10, improved WZ-19, new OICW, new uniform/helmet/vest and all, new light tanks, new MBTs, better pay, better supplies, and better infrastructure, not to mention a Beidou that will capture every inch of the battlefield while turning it into 3D map within hours of the operation, and satellite communications and stuff and I'm forgetting a few more.

From what I can see of India, a new rifle, a few new American helicopters, not enough for one division, much less a couple, a few globemasters, a new MBT, Apache, new light combat heli?, a limited satellite system?, I also heard India is developing a medium transport next after Tejas?, and I'm thinking more?

Most of these improvements are not enough in number, especially the imported ones, then the basic infantry combat gear will at best caught up to current Chinese standards, which will soon be replaced for 2019 or 2021(big parade for the country, it usually means change in uniform and other things), in terms of communication, no contest, at least not before 2030(not sure what the plan is but it could happen), MBT looks good, but how many will you have and how useful is it in mountain warfare.

What am I missing? Are there a few plans for new gear that I'm missing? But if I'm more or less right, then the difference won't decrease but increase, and not by a little.

india is not under military sanctions, as such, even though their domestic products are sub-par they can buy the best from abroad. though their GDP and thus military spending is less than china's they can choose to focus on a few select forces that can match or exceed china. for instance this mountain corps, could be armed and trained by the best and pose a real challenge to china if everything works out well for them.

however the overall level and power of their military is highly, highly unlikely to match the overall level and power of the PLA by 2020 or 2030 or in other words, any time soon. so in specific, small high intensity fights in select areas, they can be very hard to handle, but in a general war they have little chance of success.

Few fires of brahmos on bridges connecting china and Tibet is all we need to cut off chinese supply to chinese troop in Tibet. Than we can do what ever we like to Chinese forces in Tibet.

this is one of the reasons why china is working hard on large air transports such as the y-20, but even now china operates many y-8/9 transports more than enough to handle any Tibetan issue with india even if the train lines/roads are destroyed

 

[cirr]

Some pics（taken before 2012）of the 54th mechanized brigade of the Tibetan Command：

ZTZ96A MBT

ZSD89 APC

ZSL92 APC

PHL81 122mm Rocket Artillery

PLZ07 122mm Self-Propelled Howitzer

HN6 Portable Air-Defence Missile

PGZ04A 25mm Self-Propelled Antiaircraft Gun