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Motivations behind selecting the name 'India' in 1947

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What Flintock said is actually correct. At least after 1971, Bhutto said that Pakistan will turn it's back to India. Remember the Muslim leader's gathering and all that. That was an attempt to move Pakistan from South Asia to West Asia.

I think you guys realized later that it was not where you belonged and again became a part of the subcontinent. Return of the prodigal I will say.

Subah ka bhula... You are welcome back.

No, thats not quite what Flint was getting at.

Bhutto's 'shift West' was a result of the Indian aggression through 1971 and the breakup of Pakistan. It was a shift in geopolitical terms, with Pakistan looking to bolster herself through relationships with other nations. That 'shift' has continued to this day, and will continue until India and Pakistan normalize their relationship.

It has nothing to do with 'proving that we belong in the Middle East', its a reflection of the hostile relationship with India and building more alliances.
 
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No, thats not quite what Flint was getting at.

In that case may be I understood it wrong. That is how I would interpret his statement.

Bhutto's 'shift West' was a result of the Indian aggression through 1971 and the breakup of Pakistan. It was a shift in geopolitical terms, with Pakistan looking to bolster herself through relationships with other nations. That 'shift' has continued to this day, and will continue until India and Pakistan normalize their relationship.

It has nothing to do with 'proving that we belong in the Middle East', its a reflection of the hostile relationship with India and building more alliances.

It may have been provoked by the 1971 events but I see it not as a part of alliance building or bolstering only. It was to say that Pakistan as a civilization will now belong to the Muslim world (the Arab civilization) rather than the Indic civilization of the subcontinent. That Pakistan will start seeing itself as an extension of the Middle East. The same hypothesis that some in the USA are suggesting now.

So I don't agree that it is still continuing. You are part of SAARC not the Arab league. So something has changed!
 
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the lands which became modern pakistan have been cut off from india due to the mountains north of the iranian plateu and the cholistan-thar-rajhastan desert complex.

apart from 200 years of mauryan rules in all of modern pakistan
and occasional rules like gupta empirs in sindh and gandhara in norther punjab.
apart from that pakistan has been part of the following empires
PARTHIAN
BACTRIAN
SCYTHIAN
GREEK
PERSIAN
SASSANID
UMMAYAD
GHAURID
GHAZNAVID
AFGHAN

before the mughals conqured northern india pakistan and the hindus were never the same. and the mughal empire, gupta empire, and gandhara empires which ruled over pakistan cannot even be called INDIAN EMPIRES because they didnt not include south india.

so if a small portion of our country was part of hindu civilization for 300 out of 2500 years of our known history u say we were part of you? tht crazy.

Pakistan has been muslims since 650AD, the first muslims invaders in south asia came to pakistan and only went to india 600 years later when the delhi sultanate was formed. SO THE MUSLIMS OF INDIA WERE INFACT ORGINALLY PAKISTANIS AND ARE THE CHILDREN OF PAKISTAN
 
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oh and apart from UMMAYAD caliphate no other ARAB empire has ruled us. its always been either persian or central asian, and unfortunately sometimes indian.

btw my source is wikipedia,
search all those name and look the maps corresponding to their empires

oh and the only part of pakistan which were part of ancient india was northern punjba, the rest of the land was cut off by deserts.
indians like to belive, with evidence as usual, that hinduism originated in the indus valley civilization when actually hinduism was brought here by the aryan invaders who wiped out the indus valley civilization and drove the indigenous dravidians south.
 
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It may have been provoked by the 1971 events but I see it not as a part of alliance building or bolstering only. It was to say that Pakistan as a civilization will now belong to the Muslim world (the Arab civilization) rather than the Indic civilization of the subcontinent. That Pakistan will start seeing itself as an extension of the Middle East. The same hypothesis that some in the USA are suggesting now.

So I don't agree that it is still continuing. You are part of SAARC not the Arab league. So something has changed!

And where is SAARC going? Nowhere at this point. FTA's with China and other nations however are picking up. In terms of becoming part of a "West Asian bloc' I do not think that has happened either, though attempts were made through the RCD and ECO, but as I said, SAARC isn't faring any better.

The way I understand Pakistan's current policy, using Gwadar as a means for allowing transit to goods and commodities from Afghanistan and the CAR's allows it to serve as more of central cog, rather than be allied specifically with SAARC, the Arabs, China or the West, as it seeks to cater to all of their business interests.

I disagree with your point that it was some sort of a 'civilizational shift'. I have seen no evidence to validate that argument. The evidence in favor of a geo-political shift is enormous however. Ideologically Pakistanis will always associate themselves more with the 'Muslim crescent', that sentiment has only gotten stronger.
 
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And where is SAARC going? Nowhere at this point. FTA's with China and other nations however are picking up. In terms of becoming part of a "West Asian bloc' I do not think that has happened either, though attempts were made through the RCD and ECO, but as I said, SAARC isn't faring any better.

The way I understand Pakistan's current policy, using Gwadar as a means for allowing transit to goods and commodities from Afghanistan and the CAR's allows it to serve as more of central cog, rather than be allied specifically with SAARC, the Arabs, China or the West, as it seeks to cater to all of their business interests.

This is not about the success of failure of SAARC. This is about the fact that Pakistan now finds her destiny linked to that of the subcontinent. Bhutto wanted to link it to West Asia.

You may trade and engage with the whole world, you still belong to a region and a civilization. Changing that is impossible and I believe that reality dawned on Pakistan after trying to change that.

I disagree with your point that it was some sort of a 'civilizational shift'. I have seen no evidence to validate that argument. The evidence in favor of a geo-political shift is enormous however. Ideologically Pakistanis will always associate themselves more with the 'Muslim crescent', that sentiment has only gotten stronger.

I have read some good articles that did mention the effort as analogous to a 'civilizational shift'.

Will try to dig out if I can.
 
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This is not about the success of failure of SAARC. This is about the fact that Pakistan now finds her destiny linked to that of the subcontinent. Bhutto wanted to link it to West Asia.

You may trade and engage with the whole world, you still belong to a region and a civilization. Changing that is impossible and I believe that reality dawned on Pakistan after trying to change that.

Trade and interests are all that matter. What does belonging to a region mean (we obviously do not agree on the civilization part - there were many civilizations in South Asia, not one 'Indic' civ.)?

Nothing, if you cannot trade or pursue your own interests, and so long as SAARC remains mired in the Indo-Pak hostilities, it means nothing.

Read carefully into Zardaris comments, or anyone else advocating closer relationships with SAARC and India - it is all based on trade and commercial interests and benefits. Given the distrust between the two sides, and Pakistan's smaller size, Pakistan is not going to tie herself down to SAARC, though it has the potential for tremendous benefits if it actuality functions as a proper economic bloc. The FTA's and trade agreements with other nations indicate that quite clearly.

You are inferring too much from statements advocating close relationships with India, attributing to them this 'civilizational shift', when they imply is using the combined markets of SAARC (if they ever get going), to advance economic interests.

I have read some good articles that did mention the effort as analogous to a 'civilizational shift'.

Will try to dig out if I can.
Certainly, but like I said in terms of how Pakistanis view themselves, the associations with the Muslim crescent have always been strong. After a war with India, that resulted in half the country being lost, one can hardly expect Pakistanis to have any sort of 'kinship' with India. The same has occurred in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks, with Indian belligerence and threats freezing opinions in Pakistan towards India.

Governments cannot do 'civilization shifts' because they cannot control how people think, or at least they haven't been able to in Pakistan. Pakistan's shift to West Asia was based on geo-political considerations.
 
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This is not about the success of failure of SAARC. This is about the fact that Pakistan now finds her destiny linked to that of the subcontinent. Bhutto wanted to link it to West Asia.

You may trade and engage with the whole world, you still belong to a region and a civilization. Changing that is impossible and I believe that reality dawned on Pakistan after trying to change that.

Pakistan has links to all of its neighbouring regions.

If you haven't noticed, Pakistan represents the majority of all Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns and Baluchis in Asia. All neighbouring countries have links to us, but we still represent the majority.

Its the neighbouring minority people that "belong" to our civilisation.
 
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Pakistan has links to all of its neighbouring regions.

If you haven't noticed, Pakistan represents the majority of all Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtuns and Baluchis in Asia. All neighbouring countries have links to us, but we still represent the majority.

Its the neighbouring minority people that "belong" to our civilisation.

My view on this is that there are only two civilizations for Pakistan to choose from.

The Indian civilization and the Arabic/Islamic civilization (brought in by the invaders).

There is nothing called "Pakistani civilization". At best you can call a synthetic mixture of the two by that name.

You chose to separate as you abandoned the former in favor of the latter. Now some of you want to also own the pre-Islamic Indian civilization as the latter Islamic only identity is no longer proving enough.
 
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It was not our country which removed all the stories of asoka, kanishka, gupta from our textbooks, but it was Pakistan who said we dont want to claim the heritage by removing
all their references from the children's textbooks and directly jump from indus valley to 712 sindh. Why are you even thinking of pinpointing us?

I am history & Archeology major, did it in high School, then in Bachelors, and then the Masters. Your this claim that there's no Kanishka/Ashoka/Indus History in our course, is out of factual loop and devastatingly assumptious..

I had learnt throughout my schooling, college and University days about Indian history and their archeological assets. Not just that, I had an entire subject on Mahabharata in my masters Degree, yet the Ashokas and Kanishkas, which were thoroughly covered and gave us headaches of pages and pages of information to cover to pass the subject. And that's not something as elective subject - It's a compulsory subject.

So I don't think you know anything about education standards in Pakistan that what has been taught and what hasn't been taught. So don't assume.

However, I am not sure if Muslim history has been taught in India and how has it been taught, to what extent, what is covered and what is not, on what level, and whether it's elective or compulsory. Your (honest) input will be appreciated.
 
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I found one article on the issue.

Pakistan's Homecoming | South Asia, not West Asia

In 1972, after the Bangladesh war, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto publicly vowed to turn his back on India and seek Pakistan's fortune among the Islamic
countries to the West. He convened a spectacular Islamic summit at Lahore.

He embarked on a quest for nuclear weapons, not merely to deter Indian conventional superiority but also to assert Pakistan's leadership role in the Islamic world.

He christened it the 'Islamic bomb' and collected enormous funds from the Islamic world. He concluded secret defence deals with the Shah of Iran and the Gulf states to ensure their military support in any future conflict with India.


General Zia-ul Haq continued the wooing of the Islamic world. He sent a whole division of Pakistani troops to Saudi Arabia.

Pakistani pilots flew fighter aircraft for the Gulf states. Pakistan's identification with the Islamic world became total when, under the CIA's leadership it assembled a vast international jehadi force of 80,000-100,000 Muslims from countries ranging from Morocco to Indonesia to fight the Soviet forces in Afghanistan.

That, in turn gave birth to jehadism with Pakistani ideologues like Maududi (originally from India) exercising a lot of influence.

With Arab money, West European equipment obtained in black market, Chinese weapon design and technical assistance and the US looking away, Pakistan became a nuclear weapon power in the late '80s.

Yet Pakistan was not accepted as a partner by the Islamic countries of West Asia, let alone as a leader. Ayatollah Khomeini used to call Zia-ul Haq the lesser Satan, the bigger Satan being the US.

There have always been tensions between Shia Iran and Sunni-dominated Pakistan. During the first Gulf War, Pakistani army chief General Aslam Beg initially sided with Saddam Hussein's strategic defiance.

That, in turn, led to most of the Gulf states scaling down their military involvement with Pakistan under US pressure. Subsequently, Pakistan took over Afghanistan by helping the Taliban to fight the Rabbani government.

The Pakistani ISI backed the jehadi campaigns in Bosnia, Kosovo, Kashmir and Chechnya and instigated trouble in the Central Asian Republics.

Allowing Osama bin Laden refuge, supporting the Taliban and converting Pakistan into the epicentre of jehadi terrorism were all part of the Pakistani leadership's ambitious plans to play a pre-eminent role in the Islamic world.

The Pakistani leadership has a tradition of overestimating its own capability and underestimating the countervailing factors. That resulted in their being frustrated in 1947 (Kashmir), 1965 (Operation Gibraltar), 1971 (Bangladesh), 1984 (Siachen) and 1999 (Kargil).

They spoke of bleeding India through a thousand cuts but could not succeed. Similarly, their use of terrorism as an instrument of foreign policy finally recoiled on them when 9/11 happened.

The US became fully engaged in West Asia with president Bush making clear the American determination to restructure the political architecture of the region. Pakistan has been told it has no role to play to its West.

Thanks to its wrong priorities, Pakistan has lost out in terms of economic growth as well as social and political advance-ment. The Pakistani education system is completely out of sync with today's knowledge economy.

An estimate has it that the ratio of college students between Pakistan and India is 1 to 97.

General Musharraf appears finally to have realised that as a country that is part of the subcontinent and whose destiny is linked with the Indus-Gangetic area, Pakistan would never be accepted as part of West Asian Islamic states.

Long ago, a noted US analyst said that Pakistan's geostrategic importance arose out of its proximity to the three largest nations of the world - China, India and USSR - and its commanding the oil sea lanes from the Gulf.

But in a unipolar world with no active tension among these three major powers and the US, that geostrategic location has lost much of its significance. Pakistan's source of financial support, Saudi Arabia, is coming increasingly under US scrutiny.

In many ways the upcoming SAARC summit is a sort of homecoming for Pakistan: It has more in common with the rest of the subcontinent than West Asia and its future economic growth and political and social advancement depend increasingly on peaceful interaction with other SAARC nations.

Pakistan is the only country in South Asia that has been discussed internationally as a possible failed state. General Musharraf now knows that terrorism unleashed by the ISI has boomeranged on him.

The general, when faced with the US ultimatum in September 2001, made a U-turn in his Afghan policy and totally abandoned the Taliban.

Now, faced with the inexorable realities of the war on terrorism and developing international alignments, it would be logical for him to give up the policy of the last 30 years of confronting India and embark on subcontinental economic cooperation so vitally needed to prevent Pakis-tan from becoming a failed state.

In the history of SAARC this is the most crucial summit. While India, in the light of its past experience, has to be extremely cautious, it must also take into account the enormous compulsions on Pakistan to break with the past.

If Pakistan gives credible evidence of its desire to integrate with the subcontinent it should be welcomed and treated like the prodigal son of the biblical tale.

LEADER ARTICLE<BR>Pakistan's Homecoming | South Asia, not West Asia-Editorial-Opinion-The Times of India
 
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Trade and interests are all that matter. What does belonging to a region mean (we obviously do not agree on the civilization part - there were many civilizations in South Asia, not one 'Indic' civ.)?

Nothing, if you cannot trade or pursue your own interests, and so long as SAARC remains mired in the Indo-Pak hostilities, it means nothing.

Read carefully into Zardaris comments, or anyone else advocating closer relationships with SAARC and India - it is all based on trade and commercial interests and benefits. Given the distrust between the two sides, and Pakistan's smaller size, Pakistan is not going to tie herself down to SAARC, though it has the potential for tremendous benefits if it actuality functions as a proper economic bloc. The FTA's and trade agreements with other nations indicate that quite clearly.

You are inferring too much from statements advocating close relationships with India, attributing to them this 'civilizational shift', when they imply is using the combined markets of SAARC (if they ever get going), to advance economic interests.

What I mentioned has nothing to do with Zardari or even SAARC. I think the article in my previous post may give an idea of what I am trying to say here.

Certainly, but like I said in terms of how Pakistanis view themselves, the associations with the Muslim crescent have always been strong. After a war with India, that resulted in half the country being lost, one can hardly expect Pakistanis to have any sort of 'kinship' with India. The same has occurred in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks, with Indian belligerence and threats freezing opinions in Pakistan towards India.

Governments cannot do 'civilization shifts' because they cannot control how people think, or at least they haven't been able to in Pakistan. Pakistan's shift to West Asia was based on geo-political considerations.

But they can always try. And fail!
 
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My view on this is that there are only two civilizations for Pakistan to choose from.

The Indian civilization and the Arabic/Islamic civilization (brought in by the invaders).

There is nothing called "Pakistani civilization". At best you can call a synthetic mixture of the two by that name.

You chose to separate as you abandoned the former in favor of the latter. Now some of you want to also own the pre-Islamic Indian civilization as the latter Islamic only identity is no longer proving enough.
That is an extremely flawed view.

There could be an argument for an 'Islamic civilization', but that has not by any means been abandoned, as Islam has become an even stronger part of the identity of Pakistanis.

What India possesses is a 'Hindu civilization', 'Indic' is merely renaming to try and usurp the rest of the history of South Asia, and incorporate it under one 'brand', when the reality is many civilizations, cultures and peoples.

South Asia has had multiple civilizations, the IVC being one of them, centered and primarily located in the areas of Pakistan, and those are the roots Pakistan is claiming, while also building bridges to the 'Islamic civilization'.

By the way, of course ToI article would distort anything related to Pakistan. I think that the 'facts' in the article in fact support my view, that Pakistan's shift West was geo-political, and not ideological. The ideological shift occurred without any state interference, as people naturally aligned themselves with the 'Muslim crescent'.

SAARC provides the opportunity for an economic bloc, not a 'civilizational reunion' or whatever.
 
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That is an extremely flawed view.

There could be an argument for an 'Islamic civilization', but that has not by any means been abandoned, as Islam has become an even stronger part of the identity of Pakistanis.

I didn't say that you have abandoned it. What I said is that some of you are searching for more than just that. Though many Pakistanis see no need for that.

I think even you can't deny the fact that this is a relatively new trend perhaps linked to the current geo-political events in some ways. The leaders who conceived of Pakistan never had anything other than the Islamic identity for the country in mind.

What India possesses is a 'Hindu civilization', 'Indic' is merely renaming to try and usurp the rest of the history of South Asia, and incorporate it under one 'brand', when the reality is many civilizations, cultures and peoples.

South Asia has had multiple civilizations, the IVC being one of them, centered and primarily located in the areas of Pakistan, and those are the roots Pakistan is claiming, while also building bridges to the 'Islamic civilization'.

Certainly some in Pakistan are claiming the IVC roots. The fact is that few facts are known about the IVC. As more and more facts get known its true extent will also be known better.

What I am saying is why stop at just IVC? Was there nothing between the little known IVC and Bin Qasim? Why little or no interest in that history? Certainly more is known of that history than about the IVC which was certainly not known well at the time of the partition and was no basis of Pakistani nationhood.

By the way, of course ToI article would distort anything related to Pakistan. I think that the 'facts' in the article in fact support my view, that Pakistan's shift West was geo-political, and not ideological. The ideological shift occurred without any state interference, as people naturally aligned themselves with the 'Muslim crescent'.

SAARC provides the opportunity for an economic bloc, not a 'civilizational reunion' or whatever.

I never mentioned 'civilizational reunion'. But I do think that Pakistan has come a full circle from the days of Bhutto and Zia and I guess now looks at itself as a South Asian country rather than a West Asian one.
 
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Oh dear, so now "Indic" is merely an invention? Listen dude - everything is an invention, but there's a reason why most if not all historians use the term "Indic civilization".

Pakistani's shift towards the west was in terms of identity, which corresponded with a rejection/distortion of their ancient history.
All these events have culminated in the current attempt to dishonestly sever the strong bonds of history that connect the two countries.
There's a reason why Pakistani history books are not recognized outside of Pakistan.
 
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