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Motivations behind selecting the name 'India' in 1947

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I am history & Archeology major, did it in high School, then in Bachelors, and then the Masters. Your this claim that there's no Kanishka/Ashoka/Indus History in our course, is out of factual loop and devastatingly assumptious..

I had learnt throughout my schooling, college and University days about Indian history and their archeological assets. Not just that, I had an entire subject on Mahabharata in my masters Degree, yet the Ashokas and Kanishkas, which were thoroughly covered and gave us headaches of pages and pages of information to cover to pass the subject. And that's not something as elective subject - It's a compulsory subject.

So I don't think you know anything about education standards in Pakistan that what has been taught and what hasn't been taught. So don't assume.

However, I am not sure if Muslim history has been taught in India and how has it been taught, to what extent, what is covered and what is not, on what level, and whether it's elective or compulsory. Your (honest) input will be appreciated.

Thank you for a sober and well-reasoned rejoinder. All of us are entitled to have our own idealogical views; and therefrom attempt to create a vision of the future. But it would be unwise to deny or disown history.
 
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Correction - they did not believe in the idea of a single Bharat - they did not believe in the assurances of equal status in a single Bharat, but it is egregious to suggest that they were against "modernization"; and Quaid-e-Azam's own words indicate a dream of a Nation where religion would have minimal impact on the affairs of state, so they were not against the idea of freedom and equality for all, irrespective of caste, color or creed.

you are quite right here, but some where along the way Jinnnah's vision seems to have been sometimes overlooked, sometimes forgotten. Now, it is only for Pakistanis to decide whether it has affected them

The presence of an "Idea" does not indicate "existence" - that comment in fact bolsters the argument that a monolithic entity called India never existed. Just because some Muslims believe in the idea of a Pan Islamic Caliphate does not mean that it is either a very good idea, or that its presence (the idea's) somehow justifies in the future, if a caliphate were to become reality, the existence of such an entity while it was merely a concept.

Quite right.

The idea of a Pakistani state obviously proved to be just as strong as that of creating Bharat.



Yes, and for Pakistanis, the brilliant idea, concept and vision was Pakistan, a nation that was never a part of any "Indian" nation.

The EU is not a good example of a "united India", it is an association/cooperative framework of several nations, all of whom retain their independence and sovereignty, and no EU member calls themselves an EUian, they are French, British German etc.. If I'm not mistaken, such a proposal for extensive autonomy for the Muslim majority States, was shot down by the congress leadership when discussions over the future of the subcontinent were going on. But SAARC could be a good example of such cooperation.



I stand corrected on that one, apparently "India" derived from Indus from Sindhu etc.
We call ourselves Pakistanis because that is what we chose to name our nation. You named yours India, thats fine, but the argument is over whether that means that Bharat has any claim to suggest that "we were all once one", just because you chose a name that coincides with that used to describe a region composed of several nations.



Correct, and that process truly started in 1947 for both countries, before then, the "shared identity" was a result of a shared occupation and desire to rid ourselves of that occupation. Notice how quickly that "shared identity" fell apart, when the British decided to leave, and millions wanted a nation of their own. I doubt your claim of "a building of Indian identity over centuries" was a widespread ideal amongst the masses of the different nations of the subcontinent - such an idea is pretty much akin to that of a Caliphate - some intellectuals may talk of it, and may have envisioned it, but as history has shown, the people rejected it come crunch time.

But SAARC is still there, once Kashmir is resolved.

I'm skeptical about SAARC, because most of its members are still confused about their identities vis-a-vis each other. Let alone Kashmir.
 
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well it is reality that India word is derived from indus and it was given by the greeks to the land which is present day pakistan not the present day india. But later on word India was used for the whole sub continent by the british. I don't know whether there was any special reason for naming india in 1947 but may be some conspiracy theory might indicate that this was to show that pakistan's land belongs to india etc.... not sure about it.... no offence .
 
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The reason, can be debated till the end of civilisation.

But we all believe our own versions,

And i like this one the best.

secular+india.jpg


If you don't like it then send all your opinions to IDontGiveADam@DontReply.com
 
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I am sorry but I have not read all the pages. It is a bit much because, like all debates it is ending up as India/Pakistan slinging match and thus boring to read.

Fact 1: In all the initial literature of pre-partition days, India meant undivided India and name of the two countries were referred to as Hindustan and Pakistan. We must remember that during the Muslim era form 11th Century onwards this land was called Hindustan meaning land of the Hindus. Pre Muslim era subcontinent was called Bharat after a mythical King’ name.

Fact 2: The name India is derived from Indus River which is now in Pakistan. This name was only used by the Europeans.

How the new country came to be known as India is difficult to determine. It is my guess that since the all the official stationery of before partition had GOI printed on it. Army was called Indian Army, Indian Air Force and so on. And all the laws referred to as Indian Acts; after Independence, the majority part kept its name and the establishment carried on using the same official stationery.

Mountbatten, the first Governor General loved India. He even named his first grand daughter ‘India’. She is today called India Hicks. Therefore it is possible that he may have something to do with it too.

How much of the above conjecture is correct, I wouldn’t know. But I don’t see any other reason why it is not called Hindustan as initially envisaged or Bharat as called by the natives before Muslims arrived on the scene.

I apologize if this has been already said by another.
 
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I am sorry but I have not read all the pages. It is a bit much because, like all debates it is ending up as India/Pakistan slinging match and thus boring to read.

Fact 1: In all the initial literature of pre-partition days, India meant undivided India and name of the two countries were referred to as Hindustan and Pakistan. We must remember that during the Muslim era form 11th Century onwards this land was called Hindustan meaning land of the Hindus. Pre Muslim era subcontinent was called Bharat after a mythical King’ name.

Fact 2: The name India is derived from Indus River which is now in Pakistan. This name was only used by the Europeans.

How the new country came to be known as India is difficult to determine. It is my guess that since the all the official stationery of before partition had GOI printed on it. Army was called Indian Army, Indian Air Force and so on. And all the laws referred to as Indian Acts; after Independence, the majority part kept its name and the establishment carried on using the same official stationery.

Mountbatten, the first Governor General loved India. He even named his first grand daughter ‘India’. She is today called India Hicks. Therefore it is possible that he may have something to do with it too.

How much of the above conjecture is correct, I wouldn’t know. But I don’t see any other reason why it is not called Hindustan as initially envisaged or Bharat as called by the natives before Muslims arrived on the scene.

I apologize if this has been already said by another.
Your contention that the name 'India' was adopted for as superficial a reason as stationary or name of civil institutions couldn't be changed, is ridiculous.

India was named 'India' because India was (still is) the successor state to British 'India'. What it meant was that the administration of British 'India' was handed over from the Queen to the indigenous people. Everything else remained the same. On the other hand, Pakistan was a _new_ state which came into existence due to partition of British 'India'. It is because of this reason, for example, the UN membership of British 'India' went to India, while Pakistan had to make a separate application for such membership. India is also considered as one of the founder members of League of Nations for the same reason of being successor to the state that had actually signed the Treaty of Versailles.

The name 'Hindustan' would have been unacceptable because of the simple fact that India had adopted a secular constitution and that name would have been just the opposite of the ideology of India - a home for every religion, tribe, creed and caste, regardless of who was majority or who was minority.

Although this 'choosing' of name may provide some Pakistanis plenty of grist to their conspiracy mill, there is in fact no conspiracy. It is actually pretty boring.
 
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I am sorry but I have not read all the pages. It is a bit much because, like all debates it is ending up as India/Pakistan slinging match and thus boring to read.

Fact 1: In all the initial literature of pre-partition days, India meant undivided India and name of the two countries were referred to as Hindustan and Pakistan. We must remember that during the Muslim era form 11th Century onwards this land was called Hindustan meaning land of the Hindus. Pre Muslim era subcontinent was called Bharat after a mythical King’ name.

Fact 2: The name India is derived from Indus River which is now in Pakistan. This name was only used by the Europeans.

It may be that the name India was introduced by the Greeks in around 400BC, from the River Indus.

However, for the Greeks, India meant the entire Indian subcontinent, and not just the Indus Valley.

For example, as per Greek literature, Chandragupta Maurya (whose capital was Patna) was an emperor of India.
 
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Why dont we dig up origins of all countries names such as China, England? It might be more interesting and less disputed...

Not sure whats the big deal about names? But then I guess some people have a 'India' fixation...
 
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Thats not true, infact, hindu scriptures refer to the regions of Pakistan particularly the Panjab regions (including both Pakistani and Sikh Panjab) to be off limit to devout practising hindus.

Ironically, it is in the Panjab and the dessert regions south that the presence of hinduism both historically and even now was minimal. This is proven by the fact that there are rarely any ancient hindu temples located in Pakistan bar a few exceptions, while in contrast, the number of ancient Zorastrian, Buddhist, Shamanist/Animist, Islamic and more recently, Christian sites are quite extensive.

From a historical point of view and even currently if one reads ancient hindu scriptures like the Puranas, Upanishads, Gita etc... The lands of Pakistan were off limits to devout hindus.

bearing this in mind, i dont understand how, many hindustani's today claim that in ancient times, hinduism spread far beyond and was a major religion outside of its current boundaries. Archeological, historical and even many indian scriptures themselves dispel such claims.
 
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I think it may be possible that the indian founding fathers Nehru, Gandhi etc.. were acutely aware of the lack of identity that the people of hindustan had or maybe they just got lucky and inherited the continuing legacy of what Colonial Britain left in their ''creation'' of the country india.

For all intent and purpose, india is an artificial country in a modern context. It never existed historically, nor does it have any base. Many biased indians will point to Ashoka's empire, but it was not referred to india either, not on any maps, not by Ashoka himself. No ancient map exists ever showing a place called ''india'' in this form, infact alternate names are used to describe the various parts of South Asia.

As can be seen all throughout history is that the people inhabiting the gangetic plains and the subcontinent peninsula down to between the eastern and western knats have been very astute imitators of foreign cultures.

The people have always had an inheritent complex of identity, and were quick to adopt foreign cultural practises and traits, over time, gradually claiming those norms for themselves erroneously. This trait is applied over and over again all throughout history and may explain the inherent complex that many people have in South Asia in general, and as can be seen in this forum in general, the large numbers of indians who are Pakistan-fixated or fixated on other foreign things not indigenous to them.

Look at ancient hinduism (Note: the term hindu isnt even indigenous and was never used by the ancient practisers of ''hinduism'', it was introduced by foreigners after the 16th century - this is another discussion in itself)
The religion was introduced and shares many similarities to the pagan Iranic (Aryan Tribes) the settled in Pakistan and Afghanistan. In fact, Aryan legend holds that they settled the trans-indus and later Panjab region/eastern Afghanistan from where there religion spread in various directions leaving an impression. what is interesting is that many scholars, notably Iranian ones but also others, note that while hinduism shows many similarities and most likely is derived from the ancient Iranic faiths, the people now practising it are definately not Iranic in the genetic sense. In essence, the inhabitants of hindustan have adopted a foreign religion and given it a local flavour(=hinduism) claiming it as their own.

Many foreign traditions, introduced by Central Asian turks, Afghans, Arabs in the form of music, dance, art, culture, mannerism have left their imprint on them. But ironically, up until even 1526 when Babur defeated the Delhi Sultanate (Battle of Panipat), he noted that the people of Hindustan lacked basic social skills and rules of engagement. For a central asian turk to speak of such findings, doesnt point to any ''civilization'' at all. Ironically, go to wikipedia and you'll find indians editing it to read, that Babur was ''an indian ruler''. A better read would be Baburnama which gives considerable insight into the mindset of the native aboriginal people and his impression of them.

For the Hindustani, the best thing imaginable, was the arrival of the British, who not only put an end to the longstanding rule of the Mughals (A central asian empire) but also of several other empires (Hyderabad's Asif jahs), Nawabs of Bengal, Afghan etc... but built up the continent with a series of massive infrastructure projects, communication and railworks, schools and training, empowered them. They applied the name india, previously used for a region straddling the 2 banks of the Indus river in Sindh in ancient Greek and Persian maps, and applied to the entire continent stretching from burma to eastern Afghanistan.

In 1947, left them with a country. In turn giving the people of Hindustan a foreign name, new found identity and new found culture, language(Hindi over indigenous languages; note: interestingly, Panini, the ancient sankrit master was from Ghandara, Pakistan)) a sense of history and civlization, tying them back incorrectly to the ancient times. Winston Churchill summed it up just right when he said that "India is a geographical term. It is no more a united nation than the Equator". Despite this, people living all the way in Bengal, Andra Pradesh, UP and Tamil Nadu, somehow feel ''connected'' with people from the indus river of Pakistan?? sounds absurd but not when you have generations of absorbing foreign cultures and claiming them as your own. It is said, that those without any history or culture are quick to point them out on other people and find remote links to themselves so as to improve their stature and origins... Sounds familiar (I'll just leave that one as that)

Wether ''indians'' themselves actively picked the name india or were meagre bystanders in the colonial game of cultural hijack and manipulation, distorting the history and facts about the region, one will never know for sure, but what can be said is, judging by the number of people who continue to discount this and are vehemently in opposition to it, the british did a good job at it!

By the way, this is an interesting topic, I hope no one is offended by it, as it has considerable academic merit and people need to discuss it and be more aware of this cultural hijack and sabotage (one of many) inflicted by the British on the local peoples of South Asia
 
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