MMRCA to be political decision: Eurofighter

[sancho]

Why couldn't India use their $12B as leverage to stop F-16 shipments to Pakistan?

Because the order alone would take care of these fighters, if that would be necessary at all. Keep in mind please that all the US is giving to PAF are 1, or 2 squads of 4. gen F16s, while they are ready to give at least 7 squads of their latest 4.5 gen fighters to us and even offer 5. gen fighters. Be it in numbers, or in quality of techs, this deal simply outclasses the few F16s and should make clear, that they are not the aim of this procurement.

For Pakistan, India of course is still the main enemy, but this is not the case for India anymore. All new procurements and developments are clearly aimed on countering China and if we could get political advantages through this deal, it would be also aimed on China, not Pakistan.

I don't want to further comment on the other points in your post, because it leads too far away from the topic of this thread, but maybe you should read this earlier post of mine, regarding the stratigic importance of Pakistan and India for US:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/690715-post188.html

 

[Dash]

Hi dash, don't see MMRCA as a deal to satisfy other coutries! This deal will cost us over $30 billions in the next decades and must have the aim to get the most benefits for us!

Agreed!..

I can see what you have replied is based on what I said, true, but that wasnt my intention.

I wasnt voting for EFT there and I have never voted for this plane. However I was just trying to figure out the intention or the strategy of GOI behind acquiring the AC.
As you outlined a AC V/s intention in the earlier thread. I was trying to get a bigger picture out of it.

The EF is not as cost-effective as the Gripen NG, nor can the consortium members help us for an UNC seat (most of them already supports us, but they key is still the USA and that's why only a US fighter would be a help in that field)

This is what I was talking.
That,
MRCA is not a buyer- seller deal alone and simply much more than that.
If India had to only fill the numbers in IAF they could have bought stand off Mirages in the early days.
In fact we all here understand that the aircraft that comes to our inventory is not just about business but also a stategic medium for us for better relationship with the provider.

Although its not the "Principal" reason behing MRCA, however its in back of every body's mind to make the best out of this deal.

We can use this deal to bloster better relation with the provoding country, leaving TOT, business and every thing else aside.

My point was the political benifits GOI will levearage from this deal.

 

[karan.1970]

They would be flaws if you could provide proof that my perspective is incorrect. Obviously on an issue like this concerning the future, this is not quite possible. Therefore I will give you that you and I have a different perspective on this one, but will push back on your "flaw" characterization.

Absolutely.. I missed out on IMHO

There will be a big difference in what number equates with "anytime soon" based on the disposition of the GoP/Pakistani military on this issue. You may or may not agree, but the Americans do.


"This president basically is rolling the dice, he is making the most important decision of his presidency, betting on his ability to work with Pakistan and get this shared problem of the two [Pakistani and Afghan] Talibans under control," he said.

Bang on.. That's what I am trying to say.. Its a gamble Obama is taking and this time i did mention "In my view" it's not going to succeed

I completely disagree.

Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, the Obama administration’s special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, urged an even greater increase in assistance to “broaden out” the U.S. relationship with a nation he called crucial to the U.S.’s national security.

“We will not be able to succeed in Afghanistan unless our policy in Pakistan is equally successful,” Holbrooke said Tuesday evening in remarks to the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington


Holbrooke Calls for More Aid to Pakistan The Washington Independent

It has taken a while for the US to understand Pakistan's true "leverage", as you put it... but I think lessons have been well learnt. At the end of the day, Pakistan is a nuclear armed nation with 170 million people situated at the crossroads of multiple incredibly important regions, the second largest muslim nation in a world where Islam is the fastest growing religion, a country that has a major Naval facility close to the mouth of the Gulf and the number one ally to the world's next superpower. That, in a very brief nutshell, is a lot of leverage.

To start with, US military presence in Afghanistan will draw-down in a couple of years, but US interests in Afghanistan are present for the long haul. Pakistan has to, in large part, guarantee the preservation of these interests. Second, Pakistan is critical to almost all regional energy exchanges. Third, Pakistan is critical in the Sino-US equation. Fourth, Pakistan is critical as a nuclear weapons state that, in the next few years, will likely have MIRV, Triad and ICBM capabilities (many threads on these techs here and elsewhere).

Are you sure there weren't similar arguements in the last century and there weren't similar meetings/promises to Zia?? Once the taliban are taken care of (that too for public consumption) US will want to have very little to do with Afghanistan. Exactly like the last time it didnt want to do anything with it post USSR was kicked out.. Lip service aside, in my view, Afg plays very little role in USA's long term foreign policy..

Karan, I think you overvalue your $12B, that's all I can say. By your logic, UAE and Saudi Arabia should have been able to prevent arms to Israel since they outspend Israel massively. And China, due to its likely import of over 2,600 airliners, should be able to prevent India from getting anything at all.

Asia Times Online :: China News, China Business News, Taiwan and Hong Kong News and Business.

Why couldn't India use their $12B as leverage to stop F-16 shipments to Pakistan?

You may be right about over emphasis on the $12 billion deal, but then if you go thru my initial post on this, you will see that I am not advocating USA dropping Pakistan as a diplomatic payout, but in terms of protecting India's assets in Afg and getting Pakistan to act against terrorists. Just like Pakistan has leverage with USA, so does USA with Pakistan.

When USA was able to force Nawaz Sharif to accept defeat in Kargil after summoning him to Washington (without any $12 billion deal hanging in balance) , the steps I am talking about above are much less controvertial and much more defensible in public.. And Paksitan of today is actually in a weaker situation than Pakistan of 1999 at least economically...

 

[soaringphnx]

In my opinion, the rafale is the best bet for India (remember, the IAF originally wanted Mirages). It is true multi-role as it has excellent air-to-ground abilities while it also has good air-to-air abilities (though not as good as the eurofighter typhoon).

As far as I am concerned, the F-18, F-16 (because of problems with American ToT and sanctions) and MiG-35 (As the IAF already have access to russian tech and are looking to diversify) are already out of the race (although I would have loved to see the MiG-35 in service in India).

I doubt that the Griphen will be selected as it does not offer much political advantages and is competetion for the LCA. Moreover, many of it's components are American and hence again prone to sanctions. Moreover, Swedish jets have never been in service in India.

That leaves us with the eurofighter and the rafale. Both have an edge over other contenders (other than MiG-35) when it comes to ToT as it has few or no american components. Both gives the IAF access to European tech. The eurofighter is better in air-to-air while the rafale has an edge in air-to ground combat. But should India go for another fighter excelling in air-to-air when it has the Su-30MKI? So here, the rafale has the advantage as it can complement the Su-30MKI. Moreover, the rafale is cheaper than the eurofighter and according to wikipedia, it has a lower RCS. Infact, I think the IAF should extend the tender and induct 200 of the Rafales.

 

[jha]

^^ Copy paste kar raho ho kya...har thread mein same reply..

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

It's political too that's where my fear is, it may go to the american way and the EUMA is certainly not a good thing to agree especially when we have other options.

 

[soaringphnx]

It's political too that's where my fear is, it may go to the american way and the EUMA is certainly not a good thing to agree especially when we have other options.

I fear the same thing mate, especially with things like the nuke deal. But then again, India has ordered 6 C-130Js and 10 C-17s from the US. India is develpoing the PAK FA, UAC/HAL Il-214 and Brahmos with russia and the IAF has plans to acquire more Su-30MKIs, upgrade programs for MiG-29s and also the recent deal for 6 Il-78MKIs. Indian navy has also ordered MiG-29Ks, INS Vikramaditya and a few subs and cruisers. India is buying Hawk trainers from BAE. The French will get the deal to upgrade our Mirages. Israeli Avionics have been and will continue to be an important part of most upgrade programs. India also uses (and possibly may buy more) UAVs from Israel. Even HAL and DRDO are given many projects like the russian joint ventures and many other programs like the LCA, MCA, DRDO Astra, UCAVs, Agni, Prithvi, Akash......

I really dont see why any country should be angry because they didn't get the MRCA tender as everyone seems to have got a share. But then one can never be too sure. Who knows, the final winner may be F-16 or F-18 though in my personal opinion, that is not a very good move because of ToT problems and fear of sanctions.

 

[sirius4u]

I fear the same thing mate, especially with things like the nuke deal. But then again, India has ordered 6 C-130Js and 10 C-17s from the US. India is develpoing the PAK FA, UAC/HAL Il-214 and Brahmos with russia and the IAF has plans to acquire more Su-30MKIs, upgrade programs for MiG-29s and also the recent deal for 6 Il-78MKIs. Indian navy has also ordered MiG-29Ks, INS Vikramaditya and a few subs and cruisers. India is buying Hawk trainers from BAE. The French will get the deal to upgrade our Mirages. Israeli Avionics have been and will continue to be an important part of most upgrade programs. India also uses (and possibly may buy more) UAVs from Israel. Even HAL and DRDO are given many projects like the russian joint ventures and many other programs like the LCA, MCA, DRDO Astra, UCAVs, Agni, Prithvi, Akash......

I really dont see why any country should be angry because they didn't get the MRCA tender as everyone seems to have got a share. But then one can never be too sure. Who knows, the final winner may be F-16 or F-18 though in my personal opinion, that is not a very good move because of ToT problems and fear of sanctions.

If the Americans provide us full ToT and we start producing everything locally, like our flankers, i dont think we would have any problem with sanctions... But its only if they provide us FULL ToT...
F18 is a good ac though...

 

[Just Yash]

If the Americans provide us full ToT and we start producing everything locally, like our flankers, i dont think we would have any problem with sanctions... But its only if they provide us FULL ToT...
F18 is a good ac though...

 

[soaringphnx]

If the decision does go political, then the F-18 will most probably be chosen. It is better than the F-16 when it comes to Air-to-ground combat. Moreover, the F-16 has been in service with the PAF for a long time who have full knowledge of it's strengths and weaknesses. But let's hope our politions wont make that decision. All we can do is sit back and watch.