MMRCA to be political decision: Eurofighter

[KEETARP]

persionally iam offended by you indians ..... euro fighter..... come on .... mig 35 all the way!!!!!! it can kick the snot out of ef 2000

I agree partly - Mig35 now which will be used for phase 3 trials will have strongest Radar on offer .
Its old AESA zhukAE has been upgraded by New Zhuk radar with 1100+ TR modules , New module processor , New software .
Ols has new increased range
All information courtesy PARALAY.RU

But whether it will kick Eurofighter - is a bit too much .
Of all fighters no one wins hands down . Each one is class apart,
Final outcome will depend on Missiles,AWACS,Pilot skill
Weapons wise- Rafale with METEOR+MICA+ASRAAM is best in A2A.
F18 is a monster in A2G role
EW suite wise each one is more or less same - Mig35 if gets MAYAWI EW (MAYAWI-under testing in ISRAEL and DRDO) which is intended for F35 of ISRAEL+ Su30 of INDIA will be ahead if not same.

Same aircraft modified for testing after 1 year difference .
Radar-Nose has been changed and in 2nd photo see nose length difference.

Last photo shows Mig35 currently being tested ,will be handed over to IAF for weapons testing, will have bigger radar where radar is shifted back while antennae also placed slightly back to accomodate higher AESA modules.

 

[sancho]

Hi,
Americans seem to be the likely winners, but what if Russia offered some thing else to sweeten the pot?

Like what? We already have the best things they can offer with Su 30 MKI, Pak Fa / FGFA and the Migs can't get any tech, or weapon that these fighters wouldn't have in the same, or even better versions.

I agree partly - Mig35 now which will be used for phase 3 trials will have strongest Radar on offer .
Its old AESA zhukAE has been upgraded by New Zhuk radar with 1100+ TR modules , New module processor , New software .
Ols has new increased range

Which is a claim that can't be proved at the moment, because the radar is not operational. As far as I know only the smaller Zhuk with around 700 TR modules is ready yet. Nearly all contenders offers around 1000 TR modules and given the performance of the Captor PESA of the actual EF and the experience of US in AESA radars, I wouldn't underestimate these fighters.

Of course the Mig has some new techs, but nothing that isn't on offer from the other vendors and moreover, isn't already available for IAF (Russian radars, weapons, TVC, RD 33 engines...) and can the Mig offer everything that is on offer from the other contenders in return? Meteor, cruise missiles, SC, canards, latest avionics, low RCS?

But whether it will kick Eurofighter - is a bit too much .
Of all fighters no one wins hands down . Each one is class apart,
Final outcome will depend on Missiles,AWACS,Pilot skill
Weapons wise- Rafale with METEOR+MICA+ASRAAM is best in A2A.

Don't forget that except the MICA, this is the same combo for EF and Gripen NG too, the Euro-canards will be very close in A2A.

EW suite wise each one is more or less same

I don't think so, the Spectra EWS of Rafale is possibly the best one that is on offer at the moment! That's why the US tries to gather infos about it nearly everytime the Rafale is around (Red Flag, UAE) and although the French use it only in training modes at these simulations, its performance impressed several times.

 

[KEETARP]

Like what? We already have the best things they can offer with Su 30 MKI, Pak Fa / FGFA and the Migs can't get any tech, or weapon that these fighters wouldn't have in the same, or even better versions.

Which is a claim that can't be proved at the moment, because the radar is not operational. As far as I know only the smaller Zhuk with around 700 TR modules is ready yet. Nearly all contenders offers around 1000 TR modules and given the performance of the Captor PESA of the actual EF and the experience of US in AESA radars, I wouldn't underestimate these fighters.

Of course the Mig has some new techs, but nothing that isn't on offer from the other vendors and moreover, isn't already available for IAF (Russian radars, weapons, TVC, RD 33 engines...) and can the Mig offer everything that is on offer from the other contenders in return? Meteor, cruise missiles, SC, canards, latest avionics, low RCS?



Don't forget that except the MICA, this is the same combo for EF and Gripen NG too, the Euro-canards will be very close in A2A.


I don't think so, the Spectra EWS of Rafale is possibly the best one that is on offer at the moment! That's why the US tries to gather infos about it nearly everytime the Rafale is around (Red Flag, UAE) and although the French use it only in training modes at these simulations, its performance impressed several times.

We cant underestimate Russians
Bars was 12 years back, MIG31 had ZALSON/ZELSON in late 80's .
What europe+French fielded with early generation Rafale std 1/Eurofighter tranche1;/Gripen b,c in late 90's was not even close to performance of Zelson of Mig31 which was 10 years behind these. till now RDY-2/rbe/captor cant match BARS.
Even today IRBIS- outranges everything , bcoz of its sheer power rating of 20KW per module.
Earlier Zhuk had 600 Module and current one will have 1100, performane will have leap atleast by 60% if not more.

And low RCS- Well when you arm any one these , It will be where only god knows ,
Missiles , CFT's , POd's all will add to RCS
All these RCS are fancy figures for clean state
None of them have Geometry for LO/Stealth like F22/PAKFA had.

Spectra - If offered for IAF , we dont know yet, and whether it will be downgraded we also dont know that.

MAYAWI- will surely give what PIRATE/SPECTRA can. Remember it is ISRAELI in origin who are masters of electronic warfare.
They use their own EW suite on F15I and F16I which is better than AMERICA's offer.

Abt missiles - If somehow mix of Python5+ASRAAM for dogfight and
Meteor+AMRRAM for BVR is given to Eurofighter ,provided it has open architecture as per RFP of tender
It will outclass Rafale no doubt.
If software integration is powerfull enough to fire ASRAAM and Python at same moment on a fighter locked on - Well its game over i guess.

 

[Bang Galore]

Guys, follow the money. The French have just been given a Rs.10,000 cr contract for upgradation of the mirages. the Russians have just got additional orders for Su 30mki and the Mig 29K. the Europeans are most likely getting the contract for Airbus A-330 refueling tanker aircraft and BAE has not exactly covered itself with glory with the Hawk contract. That just leaves the Americans who are falling all over themselves to get this order. Make no mistake, this order is huge. The size is likely to increase to 200 at least and may get even bigger. Over the next 30-40 years the IAF will spend an additional $30 billion on these aircrafts. The Americans want this order badly and if we play this well, we stand to gain immensely both militarily and diplomatically. My bet is definitely on the SH. Its a very good platform and India-US ties would be dramatically enhanced to a different level which contrary to what many believe is not such a bad thing. The threat of sanctions is vastly overplayed. India is no pushover and this is not the last of the orders, more likely just the beginning in a $100 billion purchase budget. The Americans did not become a superpower by being stupid. Now with even the nuclear issue out of the way and promises of a lot of orders there, there are not that many issues that India & the U.S. disagree to such an extent that sanctions will be ever be considered.

 

[KEETARP]

Guys, follow the money. The French have just been given a Rs.10,000 cr contract for upgradation of the mirages. the Russians have just got additional orders for Su 30mki and the Mig 29K. the Europeans are most likely getting the contract for Airbus A-330 refueling tanker aircraft and BAE has not exactly covered itself with glory with the Hawk contract. That just leaves the Americans who are falling all over themselves to get this order. Make no mistake, this order is huge. The size is likely to increase to 200 at least and may get even bigger. Over the next 30-40 years the IAF will spend an additional $30 billion on these aircrafts. The Americans want this order badly and if we play this well, we stand to gain immensely both militarily and diplomatically. My bet is definitely on the SH. Its a very good platform and India-US ties would be dramatically enhanced to a different level which contrary to what many believe is not such a bad thing. The threat of sanctions is vastly overplayed. India is no pushover and this is not the last of the orders, more likely just the beginning in a $100 billion purchase budget. The Americans did not become a superpower by being stupid. Now with even the nuclear issue out of the way and promises of a lot of orders there, there are not that many issues that India & the U.S. disagree to such an extent that sanctions will be ever be considered.

They have power to stop engine tech (Lca f404 i think)
We want this tech to overwhelm whatever enemy flies for next 20 years.
A scaled down version of SH is not a undue advantage against those threats.
Logistically it will be a nightmare,
we cant have our missions pre-planned on jets computer bcoz of lack of source codes.
our weapon inventory will be varied from R77 to Mica to AIM120
Why not have platform that shows commanility with JAGs+M2k5 or totally Russian
(Jags and MIrage are to get ASRAAM/PYTHON5,MICA respectively in upgrade)
Jag and Mirage are not in small numbers and will serve till 2030.

Tanker's contract has been scrapped after awarding EADS.
Most probably will be going to boeing- Bcoz they are offering Boom refuelling capability that can refuel our C17+C130+P8i+Another tanker itself.
IL78 and A330 dont have that tech on offer until significant change is brought in.

Air-force works by seeing what product offers it least headache.
LCA Engine wise F104 /EU2000/Snmeca-KAveri will be another factor having implication

 

[Bang Galore]

They have power to stop engine tech (Lca f404 i think)
We want this tech to overwhelm whatever enemy flies for next 20 years.
A scaled down version of SH is not a undue advantage against those threats.
Logistically it will be a nightmare,
we cant have our missions pre-planned on jets computer bcoz of lack of source codes.
our weapon inventory will be varied from R77 to Mica to AIM120
Why not have platform that shows commanility with JAGs+M2k5 or totally Russian
(Jags and MIrage are to get ASRAAM/PYTHON5,MICA respectively in upgrade)
Jag and Mirage are not in small numbers and will serve till 2030.

Tanker's contract has been scrapped after awarding EADS.
Most probably will be going to boeing- Bcoz they are offering Boom refuelling capability that can refuel our C17+C130+P8i+Another tanker itself.
IL78 and A330 dont have that tech on offer until significant change is brought in.

Air-force works by seeing what product offers it least headache.
LCA Engine wise F114 /EU2000/Snmeca-KAveri will be another factor having implication

The engine will be GE F414 ans the same can be used in the LCA. Logistically buying anything but Russian will be a nightmare. Buy Russian and it will be a operational nightmare. The Mig 35 does not actually exist. If India were to go for it, the first deliveries may be in 2117 which considering IAF's squadron levels will be very late. The SH comes with a proven AESA radar which will give a significant boost to the IAF. No chance of accepting a scaled down version , ask them to take a hike if they offer that. The EF and Rafale have no AESA radar available at the moment, it takes a lot of time for one to be considered matured . Both of these aircrafts are also more expensive when compared with the SH and in the case of the EF similar in capabilities to the Su 30mki. The EF also does not have a well developed ground attack capabilities. Considering how much the French are charging for upgradation of the mirages, the Rafale will be extremely expensive to maintain over the next 30 years.

 

[KEETARP]

The engine will be GE F414 ans the same can be used in the LCA. Logistically buying anything but Russian will be a nightmare. Buy Russian and it will be a operational nightmare. The Mig 35 does not actually exist. If India were to go for it, the first deliveries may be in 2117 which considering IAF's squadron levels will be very late. The SH comes with a proven AESA radar which will give a significant boost to the IAF. No chance of accepting a scaled down version , ask them to take a hike if they offer that. The EF and Rafale have no AESA radar available at the moment, it takes a lot of time for one to be considered matured . Both of these aircrafts are also more expensive when compared with the SH and in the case of the EF similar in capabilities to the Su 30mki. The EF also does not have a well developed ground attack capabilities. Considering how much the French are charging for upgradation of the mirages, the Rafale will be extremely expensive to maintain over the next 30 years.

Some of your statements are wrong assumptions

Mig35 - except AESA radar+ 1 extra hardpoint envolving some airframe changes is basically A MIG29 K .
Russians delivered MIg29K just after 1 year delay , but line is now setup and open , so Mig35 will be delivered starting by 2014 ,
only thing is India should specify its western subsytems to be installed.

Second point-
Rafale has been flying and testing with RBE2 for last 2 years.
Check the net - Rafale sent for phase2 trials had an fully functional AESA.

Third point
SH offered will be scaled down AESA upto level allowed by US gov.
And same goes with source codes.

Fouth point-
If SU30 is a headache operating(prove this) , I will accept what you say about Russian hardware.

And Sancho - Do you remember we had a discussion abt AESA radar .
whether swash-plate or Fixed type is better , any new update on that.
I read some articles few days back Eurofighter is also going to have moving type, just like Gripen
What happened to AMSAAR.

 

[sancho]

And low RCS- Well when you arm any one these , It will be where only god knows ,
Missiles , CFT's , POd's all will add to RCS
All these RCS are fancy figures for clean state
None of them have Geometry for LO/Stealth like F22/PAKFA had.

External loads are only one side, things like size of the fighter, ammount of composites used in the airframe, or how good the engine blades are hidden, are important points for RCS too and one can't redesgn the air intakes of the Mig, F18SH, not even at the F15 SE to make them stealthy. That's why designs like EF and Rafale have a clear advantage here and why they offer way more potential for the next 3 decades where these fighters will stay in service.

Spectra - If offered for IAF , we dont know yet, and whether it will be downgraded we also dont know that.

MAYAWI- will surely give what PIRATE/SPECTRA can. Remember it is ISRAELI in origin who are masters of electronic warfare.
They use their own EW suite on F15I and F16I which is better than AMERICA's offer.

Why shouldn't Spectra be offered? It is on offer for Brasil too. You believe that Mayawi offers the same as Spectra, but not much is known about its capabilities right? And even if, it wouldn't make sense to get the inferior fighter, only because we can integrate that EWS in it and the Mig is clearly one of the worst options for IAF, besides the F16.

Abt missiles - If somehow mix of Python5+ASRAAM for dogfight and
Meteor+AMRRAM for BVR is given to Eurofighter ,provided it has open architecture as per RFP of tender
It will outclass Rafale no doubt.

I also think that the EF is better in A2A than the Rafale, but since the simulations in UAE I'm sure that the EF can't outclass the Rafale! Imo, in A2A EF might have the better radar and Rafale the better EWS, but besides this neither theri design, the RCS, the T/W ratio, nor the weapon combo will give one of them a clear advantage.
EF might have a slight advantage in A2A, but a big disadvantage in A2G!

And Sancho - Do you remember we had a discussion abt AESA radar .
whether swash-plate or Fixed type is better , any new update on that.
I read some articles few days back Eurofighter is also going to have moving type, just like Gripen
What happened to AMSAAR.

As far as I know, still nothing is decided, UK is only pushing forward with ITA and their Selsex Galileo radar, but Germany still has doubts. However, I expect the same radar for EF too, simply by the fact, that they already are much delayed and have to come up with a decision fast. For EF this radar for sure will have a bigger diameter and will offer better performance than in the Gripen, but it will be more expensive in maintenance too. Might be not a problem for the cost-effective Gripen, but not sure how it will be for EF.

 

[sancho]

Tanker's contract has been scrapped after awarding EADS.
Most probably will be going to boeing- Bcoz they are offering Boom refuelling capability that can refuel our C17+C130+P8i+Another tanker itself.
IL78 and A330 dont have that tech on offer until significant change is brought in.

That is not correct, A330 MRTT was rejected from the finance ministry, not from IAF, or MoD. Also A330 has a boom too:

EADS Tanker Program Affirms Maturity With Refueling of NATO AWACS Aircraft

 

[KEETARP]

External loads are only one side, things like size of the fighter, ammount of composites used in the airframe, or how good the engine blades are hidden, are important points for RCS too and one can't redesgn the air intakes of the Mig, F18SH, not even at the F15 SE to make them stealthy. That's why designs like EF and Rafale have a clear advantage here and why they offer way more potential for the next 3 decades where these fighters will stay in service.

Let me put it this way - These are not stealth aircrafts built only for low observable as prime importance ,
secondly with Powerful AWACS around whatever little advantage they have gets negated bcoz they will be detected finally at comfortable range to fire a BVR engagement.

Why do you Think SPECTRA is best - Lets see what data you have to compare it against ALQ series and ELISRA/DARE pods from ISRAEL.
All data abt Spectra is classified, whatever people write is mere self assumptions.
There are no official specs available on DASSAULT website/Brochure to allow anyone to compare its performance.

And i say abt ISRAEL bcoz they are going to use it on F35 and not the EW suite being built by United states,
and for that matter excel in this field ,Their history in this field is pretty impressive ,they have been giving top notch upgrades to our JAGS/SU30/MIG29/MIG27. in form of EW equipment

Believe me if MIG35 is selected it will have its subsystem from various sourcs MKI like .

 

[Bang Galore]

Some of your statements are wrong assumptions

Mig35 - except AESA radar+ 1 extra hardpoint envolving some airframe changes is basically A MIG29 K .
Russians delivered MIg29K just after 1 year delay , but line is now setup and open , so Mig35 will be delivered starting by 2014 ,
only thing is India should specify its western subsytems to be installed.

The main reason for this tender was to diversify away from the russians and bring a balance between western platforms and russian ones. Mig 35 starts on a weak wicket straight away. The original tender was for a light fighter kept with the IAF's preferred choice in mind -the Mirage 2000. Once the tender was opened to heavy fighters, the Mig 35 finds itself simply outclassed in terms of performance. If a single engined plane was selected on performance, it would have most likely been the gripen. The lack of a tested AESA is a serious drawback and in my opinion makes this aircraft the least likely to be chosen.

Second point-
Rafale has been flying and testing with RBE2 for last 2 years.
Check the net - Rafale sent for phase2 trials had an fully functional AESA.

Testing an AESA is completely different from having a tested AESA. A matured AESA is as of now available only with the Americans. Both the Rafele & EF are much more expensive when compared to SH and will require a larger budget.

Third point
SH offered will be scaled down AESA upto level allowed by US gov.
And same goes with source codes.

Maybe, but then we can make a determination by comparing it with the other contenders, can't we? I, for one seriously doubt that the Americans are going to play hardball on this one. If they do, we can ask them to take a hike.

Fouth point-
If SU30 is a headache operating(prove this) , I will accept what you say about Russian hardware.

Never mentioned the Su 30mki but in general, Russian hardware needs far more maintenance than western ones which was btw the main reason the IAF wanted to buy more of the M2k .

In the end this will all boil down to a political decision. My opinion is that for a variety of reasons including performance and strategic calculations the SH will most likely be selected barring any serious difference cropping up between India & the U.S.in the interim.

Thanks for your time

 

[zagahaga]

just get mig 35ef 2000 rippp offffff...... beacuse well will know its ups and downs from saudies..... hehehehe

 

[su-47]

just get mig 35ef 2000 rippp offffff...... beacuse well will know its ups and downs from saudies..... hehehehe

EF is such an advanced platform that eve in if you know its ups, downs, lefts and rights there ain't much you can do about it.

In fact knowing its real capability might scare you a little!

 

[KEETARP]

The main reason for this tender was to diversify away from the russians and bring a balance between western platforms and russian ones. Mig 35 starts on a weak wicket straight away. The original tender was for a light fighter kept with the IAF's preferred choice in mind -the Mirage 2000. Once the tender was opened to heavy fighters, the Mig 35 finds itself simply outclassed in terms of performance. If a single engined plane was selected on performance, it would have most likely been the gripen. The lack of a tested AESA is a serious drawback and in my opinion makes this aircraft the least likely to be chosen.

As far as i am concerned this is MMRCA- Medium Mutirole combat aircraft tender.There Mig29 fits perfectly in weight category.
If you need heavy duty like Range+Fuel+Combat load MKI is there.

Testing an AESA is completely different from having a tested AESA. A matured AESA is as of now available only with the Americans. Both the Rafele & EF are much more expensive when compared to SH and will require a larger budget.

This was bound to happen , when RFP were sent none of them had a functional AESA radar except F16 & F18 that too untested in Battle field.
When UAE selected Block60 F16 they were the first ones , Forget war experience that AESA was in first stages of development.Nobody knew abt the performance it will deliver at that time, it has gone through regular software upgrades to bring it at today's level.

Maybe, but then we can make a determination by comparing it with the other contenders, can't we? I, for one seriously doubt that the Americans are going to play hardball on this one. If they do, we can ask them to take a hike.

Difficult you see.
When Americans deal - its one way traffic only
Europe is finding out that wrt KC-X tanker deal.
UK is roughed up bcoz US is not ready to reveal source codes of F35.

Never mentioned the Su 30mki but in general, Russian hardware needs far more maintenance than western ones which was btw the main reason the IAF wanted to buy more of the M2k .

I agree partly bcoz of old MIG29 issue - Yes .
But what abt today - i am sure Su30 is upto the standurd what M2k offers

In the end this will all boil down to a political decision. My opinion is that for a variety of reasons including performance and strategic calculations the SH will most likely be selected barring any serious difference cropping up between India & the U.S.in the interim.

If thats so - This will be biggest mistake .
If Brazil can shrug off US pressure why cant we
Eu/Russian is the way up for me
Give engine deal to US. MRCA to Eu. Brand new PAK-FA to Russian federation.
No dependence on any single one of them , full variability to have a taste of everything

Thanks for your time

Same from here - Keep up posting, I enjoy reading your posts on every thread esp if IND-PAK matter surfaces.
T.C

just get mig 35ef 2000 rippp offffff...... beacuse well will know its ups and downs from saudies..... hehehehe

UAE also has Mirage200-9
To buy Rafale next
Flies Eurofighter , F16 block 60 on which F16in is based.

Bangladesh has Mig29

China has Su30,F7-Mig21 basically

America & NATO - operate F18 (assuming PAKISTAN is the only NON-NATO ally)

 

[jagjitnatt]

The best aircraft at the moment id EF Typhoon, no matter how you see it.

Mig35: Outdated design, needs lots of upgrades to avionics to make it worthwhile. Too much dependence on russia. Not the top quality product.

Gripen: Great plane, full TOT available. Even radar source code available which will enable us to use other missiles with Gripen too. Least expensive maintenance wise. But single engined and small.

F16IN: Great plane but the neighbor uses older versions of these. Would be useless 10-15 years in the future.

F18IN: Good plane. Great at A2G but not the top dog when it comes to A2A. Heavy, Slow, less maneuverable and old. Already being phased out in some countries. Would be useless in 15 years from now. Complete TOT not possible. Even radar source code wouldn't be available, so only US missiles and weapons would be usable on it.

Rafale: Very nice plane, Awesome at A2A and A2G. True multirole fighter. But expensive. Best EW suite. Very capable. very low rcs.

EF2000: The best. Very low rcs. Awesome at A2A, not too good at A2G at the moment. Great ew suite, great maneuverability. Very expensive.

The advantage with EF is that we become the partner in the program and we earn not only money but also technology in the coming years. We would jointly develop the next tranches of EF and may even work on the next generation of the plane. Also buying EF will please all the partner countries thus better diplomacy for India.

We already have too many A2G aircraft like Jaguars and Mig27s in our inventory. Even Su30 can do a great job at it. So A2G shouldn't be our biggest priority.