MMRCA to be political decision: Eurofighter

[Luftwaffe]

F-18 is final..but yes india will not leave russians in a lurch india will get its hand dirty with su-35's technology for say couple of squadrons of its su-30's..it'll be a plus plus for russians..

 

[jagjitnatt]

F-18 is final..but yes india will not leave russians in a lurch india will get its hand dirty with su-35's technology for say couple of squadrons of its su-30's..it'll be a plus plus for russians..

Russians already have their hands full.

Pak-fa, Subs, Mig29K, Aircraft Carrier, nuclear plants, etc,etc

We don't need Mig35. Instead we'll get our Su30MKI upgraded to AESA in near future.

Its either gonna be F18, Rafale or EF.
Thinking that F18 is final is not right. IAF goes for the best, no matter who the seller. Let's see what happens.

 

[KEETARP]

F-18 is final..but yes india will not leave russians in a lurch india will get its hand dirty with su-35's technology for say couple of squadrons of its su-30's..it'll be a plus plus for russians..

No offence but any proof to back up.
Selection process is still on - Best performing jet which outclasses other will win.
There is no final word.
Every forum is making assumptions based on his/her logic.

I havent heard any news/rumuors even, that india is looking to buy su35.

 

[KEETARP]

Mig35: Outdated design, needs lots of upgrades to avionics to make it worthwhile. Too much dependence on russia. Not the top quality product.

outdated design, i think you meant old design
F22 first flew in 1990 i guess
Rafale was designed in late 80's
Mig29 made its debut in Farnborough air show in 1985

MIG29 has old design but its aerodynamic design is better than all other in deal even today

Gripen: Great plane, full TOT available. Even radar source code available which will enable us to use other missiles with Gripen too. Least expensive maintenance wise. But single engined and small.

what abt engine- if US stopped israel from offering ElTA-2052 AESA on it, I bet more is to come

F16IN: Great plane but the neighbor uses older versions of these. Would be useless 10-15 years in the future.

China also uses Su30 we continue to buy that
As far as any plane that meets RFP and gets lock on enemy jets even its own type - good enough to be winner

F18IN: Good plane. Great at A2G but not the top dog when it comes to A2A. Heavy, Slow, less maneuverable and old. Already being phased out in some countries. Would be useless in 15 years from now. Complete TOT not possible. Even radar source code wouldn't be available, so only US missiles and weapons would be usable on it.

Guess what- first flight was in 77 , you call this old not outdated.
Its a battle tested machine
AUS is buying, Now even Japan and more orders from USN is coming.
USN is not that happy with F35

Rafale: Very nice plane, Awesome at A2A and A2G. True multirole fighter. But expensive. Best EW suite. Very capable. very low rcs.

Damn correct,but unproven
Expensive - Not that much

EF2000: The best. Very low rcs. Awesome at A2A, not too good at A2G at the moment. Great ew suite, great maneuverability. Very expensive.

Same as above, but unproven
Dont worry abt cost

The advantage with EF is that we become the partner in the program and we earn not only money but also technology in the coming years. We would jointly develop the next tranches of EF and may even work on the next generation of the plane. Also buying EF will please all the partner countries thus better diplomacy for India.

May be right but
Too much , to believe

We already have too many A2G aircraft like Jaguars and Mig27s in our inventory. Even Su30 can do a great job at it. So A2G shouldn't be our biggest priority.

Correct

 

[jha]

well then what should be the priority if A2G is not the priority ..if MIG-27 is considered enough for ground attack along with JAGUARs then there is no need to have a competition ...whatever someone says SU-30 is an AIR-AIR fighter and very good one at that...thats why best choice would be RAFALE/SH and just to augment the numbers GRIPEN...

feel free to disagree

 

[zagahaga]

EF is such an advanced platform that eve in if you know its ups, downs, lefts and rights there ain't much you can do about it.

In fact knowing its real capability might scare you a little!

brother knowing its real capabilities is what we do not want Know!!!!!!! its very dangerious

 

[zagahaga]

no f 18 maybe not ..... you guys are going for mig 35 or ef 2000 ..... for me i would go for mig 35 .....
1. you familar with the infastructure of the plane.
2. it probly right now the worlds most best plane for TVC.
3.modern day mig has history to back up.
4.and last but least ef 2000 is not proven yet mig is war proven... i would **** in my pants i f i heard a mig 35 is comeing rather than a ef 2000

 

[sancho]

Let me put it this way - These are not stealth aircrafts built only for low observable as prime importance ,
secondly with Powerful AWACS around whatever little advantage they have gets negated bcoz they will be detected finally at comfortable range to fire a BVR engagement.

Of course sooner or later they will be detected too, but the later, the more advantage right? For example, the MKI is often quoted with a RCS of 15m², EF and Rafale instead less than 1m²! That means PAFs AWACS can detect MKI even in Indian airspace, whereas EF, or Rafale could enter their airspace way before they will be detected. The reaction time to counter them will be very short and this gives clear advantages to them, especially if with Meteor in BVR.

Why do you Think SPECTRA is best - Lets see what data you have to compare it against ALQ series and ELISRA/DARE pods from ISRAEL.
All data abt Spectra is classified, whatever people write is mere self assumptions.
There are no official specs available on DASSAULT website/Brochure to allow anyone to compare its performance.

As i said before, Spectra proved itself to be exellent even in downgraded modes at several simulations, it is proven and on offer for us with a very capable fighter, while Mayavi is not proven and could be possible only with an inferior fighter.
Of course they don't put specs of Spectra on public sites, but they do explain its capabilities:

SPECTRA - Thales Group

Rafale Thales

It's not only a defensive system to counter ground, or air threats, it also uses the sensors to give the pilot much more situational awareness by passive detection, than just with radar, or IRST and can even be used offensive to track targets and destroy them.

As you can see in the following pics, the detection range of Spectra is even higher, than the radar detection range of the RBE 2 PESA and it offers 360° coverage:




Maybe we should have this comparison via PM, what do you think?

And i say abt ISRAEL bcoz they are going to use it on F35 and not the EW suite being built by United states

As long the US didn't allow customising, they won't use it in F35, just like the EL 2052, will be interesting to see how that problem will be solved.

Believe me if MIG35 is selected it will have its subsystem from various sourcs MKI like .

Of course, because the Russian systems are inferior and some of the parts will be French as well, but that doesn't mean the Mig 35 would give IAF a clear advantage right?
There are only 2 advantages they have over MKI, lower maintenance costs and RCS, but all MMRCAs will be better in this field + different weapons and techs, so the Mig 35 doesn't give an advantage at all for IAF.

 

[Luftwaffe]

f-18s as mrca winner is part of nuclear deal with us..you go against it you'll get no nuclear deal for sure...mig-35, gripen and followed by rafale are the weakest links. EF is going strong but either you go for us or go against them and you know what you get in return for going against their wishes..
ofcourse we're making predicting what'll happen we'll know it but if you go with the trends F-18 Tops the list followed by EF. the weakest are gripen and mig-35. Look you get F-18E dubbed for india F-18IN you can later on replace you jaguars with version of EA-18G specialized version which is basically Electronic warfare aircraft as well as deep strike. neither does mig-35 offers you this nor gripen.

 

[jagjitnatt]

f-18s as mrca winner is part of nuclear deal with us..you go against it you'll get no nuclear deal for sure...mig-35, gripen and followed by rafale are the weakest links. EF is going strong but either you go for us or go against them and you know what you get in return for going against their wishes..
ofcourse we're making predicting what'll happen we'll know it but if you go with the trends F-18 Tops the list followed by EF. the weakest are gripen and mig-35. Look you get F-18E dubbed for india F-18IN you can later on replace you jaguars with version of EA-18G specialized version which is basically Electronic warfare aircraft as well as deep strike. neither does mig-35 offers you this nor gripen.

nuke deal is already done dude.
as for weakest planes, its F16 and Gripen.
Mig 35 is no good either.
The competition is between F-18, EF, and Rafale. All three are top class. The trials will decide the winner. Let's wait and not waste energy making assumptions.

 

[sancho]

The best aircraft at the moment id EF Typhoon, no matter how you see it.

EF2000: The best. Very low rcs. Awesome at A2A, not too good at A2G at the moment. Great ew suite, great maneuverability. Very expensive.

So there are negative sides to look at too right?

The advantage with EF is that we become the partner in the program and we earn not only money but also technology in the coming years. We would jointly develop the next tranches of EF and may even work on the next generation of the plane. Also buying EF will please all the partner countries thus better diplomacy for India.

That is not correct, we only will be a partner in production, not an equal partner of development, this was stated from EADS officials before. So future developments/upgrades would only have a minor influence from India, if at all.

From the diplomatic point of view we couldn't gain much either, UK and ITA only do what the US say, Germany is a leader in Europe, but is also only hoping for a permanent UNC seat like us and Spain isn't a help.
Politically only an US fighter would give us advantages, the others are unimportant, or already support us like Russia and France.

We already have too many A2G aircraft like Jaguars and Mig27s in our inventory. Even Su30 can do a great job at it. So A2G shouldn't be our biggest priority.

It's the other way around! We already have and will get more than enough A2A fighters (230-270 MKI + at least 250 Pak Fa/FGFA air superiority fighters, around 60 Mig 29, around 125 Mig 21 Bisons and even more LCAs as interceptors), but only a few capable strike fighters (Mirage 2000 and MKI mainly).
The 32 upg Mig 27 and possibly around 100 Jaguars are old, less capable and can only be used for strikes when air superiority is achieved.
Which fighter except the MKI and most likely the upgraded Mirage 2000 in IAF actual fleet can use a stand off, or cruise missiles?
Which offers enough range, weapon load, or low RCS and can be used for deep penetration strikes, or SEAD?

Imo the fact that IAF wants real weapon trials says that A2G is important, because the A2A capabilities are the first that will be integrated in a fighter and could be simulated too. It seems that they want to know about all capabilities of the fighters, including the A2G weapons.

 

[Luftwaffe]

buddy you guys are long way from completing nuclear deal..Yes F-16IN is weakest along with what i already explained..
F-18/EF-2000 i believe are very strong contenders but that's going to be quiet a slap on us face if india goes for EF-2000 just like saudis snubbed americans going for EF-2000 after us refused to sell F-16s on behalf of israel. good for saudis, bad for clinton administration 30 Billion dollars deal went down the drain. you can google for more information.
I read Japanese are also interested in EF-2000 after F-22/F-35 not being sold even though they've cash ready to be thrown-in to get the deal..
but the way americans play F-18 won already..

 

[Luftwaffe]

sancho...that's where F-18 fits..get F-18 and later on ask for EA-18G you won't get refusal.

 

[jagjitnatt]

buddy you guys are long way from completing nuclear deal..

care to elaborate how?
nuclear power plant development has started. Fuel is being bought from all over the world. What else do we need to complete a nuke deal?
Read this from wikipedia:

The US House of Representatives passed the bill on 28 September 2008. Two days later, India and France inked a similar nuclear pact making France the first country to have such an agreement with India. On October 1, 2008 the US Senate also approved the civilian nuclear agreement allowing India to purchase nuclear fuel and technology from the United States. U.S. President, George W. Bush, signed the legislation on the Indo-US nuclear deal, approved by the U.S. Congress, into law, now called the United States-India Nuclear Cooperation Approval and Non-proliferation Enhancement Act, on October 8, 2008. The agreement was signed by Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee and his counterpart Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, on 10 October.

 

[KEETARP]

If you think Nuclear deal was meant to be done with MRCA deal in attachment .
You are grossly wrong in estimation
Nuclear deal is worth 200 billion dollars or more in business that too initially,
and who are to gain in it - American companies.
They are gonna earn billions of direct profit by offering new tech for power-plants and Fuel.
Same goes with Russia+France.
Our energy need req will be hundreds of billions in future since India is expanding , We already gulp large amount of crude oil and with time its all said to increase.

Compare that to MRCA deal mere 10 billions for fighters, 35 billions for spares,weapons etc.
What profit will US earn will go down again bcoz of substantial offset policy.

MRCA deal is just to establish, to tap future defence market of india even if Boeing looses this deal.,there is absolutely nothing attached to Nuclear deal. They just want a foothold
I heard that prediction is 200bill for next few years for weapons , Americans are building launchpad for that , profit will always be limited by offsets
Already we have abt 8 billions deal done with US
further 10 Billions is in line- Apache64+Bell+Chinhook+Augusta-westland+Silrosky+E2D+Tanker+AEGIS what else only god knows

If they attach any strings - Only America will loose , and we all know who hold trump cards in US , its strong Jews business community, they have minds no one can think off