Misleading reports related to IAF capability and Pakistani media bravado

[araz]

Sir China offered us J-10 B from day one it was our miserable economy which is stopping us but now I think we have decided to go for J-10 B finally in start we may go for only two squadrons but number will increase massively soon

That is not entirely correct. when PAF and Chengdu signed the original accord on JFT J10 was still in testing. the project had suffered a setback when a crash in 1996 had resulted in a return to the drawing board. The J10 was therefore a risky project to begin with. What PAF did which is the most pragmatic solution to the problems of an obsolescent fleet and a dithering economy was to take a risk free approach and design which used off the shelf technology which was easy to replicate for PAF. This turned out to be the best possible decision as the first prototype flew in 3yrs or less and we had a READY AND TESTED PLATFORM in 2008. China could not have offered what was not ready and to the best of my knowledge this was never offered . PAF has a long term strategy of taking on mature technology and risks where the prospect of loss is minimal. The only reason why I am slightly dubious about PAF investing in J31 is for that reason. However, I do understand that the J20 as it develops will have technologies which can be passed down to the j31. However who invests in the project now remains an unanswered question as far as I am concerned.
To those people who think that JFT is a cheap plane, May I remind you that PAF has done a cost benefit analysis of both J10 and JFT. In addition to all the other factors one of the things which was highlighted was that the potential for upgrading was far more in JFT than in J10. Now dont ask me why because i dont know the answer, but look a t the fact that the US had never really taken to the Delta Canard design and instead concentrated on a non canard based design which they say has more stealth than canard design.
regards
Araz

 

[M.AsfandYar]

Either you have been asked to ensure threads run longer or you are a troll who like to bash India for no reason.

Your comprehension is shit.^^^^

 

[araz]

It took Indians a decade to decide on their MMRCA and three years after selecting the Rafale, it only orders two squadron which if all goes well, the first aircraft will be inducted in another two years time. The MKI is nothing new, i rather have more surprises like the Jordanian F-16s than to sit and wait for paint to dry.

If you look at it from the global arms sale prospect, the IAF has simply kicked us out of the EU by hanging on to the contract for as long as they could. he Rafale was never going to be a cost effective platform for IAF, the long term aim was always going to be PAKFA and perhaps upgrades on the M2Ks to make them relevant to the modern era for another decade. What they have done is to ensure that PAF does not get its hands on anything other than the Chinese or US the latter of which may remain sanction prone. So not a bad move after all. As to what happens in the future, he who has money will always talk!!!
Araz

 

[tsinga]

If you look at it from the global arms sale prospect, the IAF has simply kicked us out of the EU by hanging on to the contract for as long as they could. he Rafale was never going to be a cost effective platform for IAF, the long term aim was always going to be PAKFA and perhaps upgrades on the M2Ks to make them relevant to the modern era for another decade. What they have done is to ensure that PAF does not get its hands on anything other than the Chinese or US the latter of which may remain sanction prone. So not a bad move after all. As to what happens in the future, he who has money will always talk!!!
Araz

If this did happen, it is entirely coincidental.
It took India 20 years to finalize on Hawk AJT's. Would you suggest India was trying to ensure Pakistan did not get Hawk as well?

 

[Zarvan]

That is not entirely correct. when PAF and Chengdu signed the original accord on JFT J10 was still in testing. the project had suffered a setback when a crash in 1996 had resulted in a return to the drawing board. The J10 was therefore a risky project to begin with. What PAF did which is the most pragmatic solution to the problems of an obsolescent fleet and a dithering economy was to take a risk free approach and design which used off the shelf technology which was easy to replicate for PAF. This turned out to be the best possible decision as the first prototype flew in 3yrs or less and we had a READY AND TESTED PLATFORM in 2008. China could not have offered what was not ready and to the best of my knowledge this was never offered . PAF has a long term strategy of taking on mature technology and risks where the prospect of loss is minimal. The only reason why I am slightly dubious about PAF investing in J31 is for that reason. However, I do understand that the J20 as it develops will have technologies which can be passed down to the j31. However who invests in the project now remains an unanswered question as far as I am concerned.
To those people who think that JFT is a cheap plane, May I remind you that PAF has done a cost benefit analysis of both J10 and JFT. In addition to all the other factors one of the things which was highlighted was that the potential for upgrading was far more in JFT than in J10. Now dont ask me why because i dont know the answer, but look a t the fact that the US had never really taken to the Delta Canard design and instead concentrated on a non canard based design which they say has more stealth than canard design.
regards
Araz

Sir both J-31 and J-20 are far away and they are not the answer to Rafale we need J-10 B to counter 4.5 Generation fleet of India we are not going to use J-20 or J-31 for that

 

[AnsonHsiao]

我是中国人，我热爱这个国家和巴基斯坦的人，我希望我们的国家能做到很好的朋友，很少有中国的朋友，我希望越来越多的人与文化的交流。让我们共同发展，共同成长，祝福巴基斯坦！希望能有机会到贵国，也欢迎您到中国。我想知道你的朋友！对不起 - 我的英语不好，中国版为准
我是中国人，我热爱这个国家和巴基斯坦的人，我希望我们的国家能做到很好的朋友，很少有中国的朋友，我希望越来越多的人与文化的交流。让我们共同发展，共同成长，祝福巴基斯坦！希望能有机会到贵国，也欢迎您到中国。我想认识你的朋友！（对不起 - 我的英语不好，中国版为准）

我是中国人，我热爱这个国家和巴基斯坦的人，我希望我们的国家能做到很好的朋友，很少有中国的朋友，我希望越来越多的人与文化的交流。让我们共同发展，共同成长，祝福巴基斯坦！希望能有机会到贵国，也欢迎您到中国。我想知道你的朋友 ！对不起 - 我的英语不好，中国版为准

 

[syedali73]

IWhat they have done is to ensure that PAF does not get its hands on anything other than the Chinese or US the latter of which may remain sanction prone. So not a bad move after all. As to what happens in the future, he who has money will always talk!!!
Araz

European stuff is as much sanction prone. You have a point but I see this as blessing in disguise. We have learnt that is not reliable to do business with Europe, essentially France for we have not purchased fighters from Britain, Italy, or Sweden anyway. Chinese are progressing very fast and we'll be fine using Chinese hardware while slowly but surely developing our expertise.

 

[AnsonHsiao]

我是中国人，我热爱这个国家和巴基斯坦的人，我希望我们的国家能做到很好的朋友，很少有中国的朋友，我希望越来越多的人与文化的交流。让我们共同发展，共同成长，祝福巴基斯坦！希望能有机会到贵国，也欢迎您到中国。我想知道你的朋友！对不起 - 我的英语不好，中国版为准
我是中国人，我热爱这个国家和巴基斯坦的人，我希望我们的国家能做到很好的朋友，很少有中国的朋友，我希望越来越多的人与文化的交流。让我们共同发展，共同成长，祝福巴基斯坦！希望能有机会到贵国，也欢迎您到中国。我想认识你的朋友！（对不起 - 我的英语不好，中国版为准）

我是中国人，我热爱这个国家和巴基斯坦的人，我希望我们的国家能做到很好的朋友，很少有中国的朋友，我希望越来越多的人与文化的交流。让我们共同发展，共同成长，祝福巴基斯坦！希望能有机会到贵国，也欢迎您到中国。我想知道你的朋友 ！对不起 - 我的英语不好，中国版为准

 

[araz]

If this did happen, it is entirely coincidental.
It took India 20 years to finalize on Hawk AJT's. Would you suggest India was trying to ensure Pakistan did not get Hawk as well?

Howsoever you look at it, in the global scheme of things and the great game that goes on, this aspect and effect of the deal cannot be denied. France walked out of the Radar and avionics deal and Gripen gently denied the offer on grounds of not selling to areas in conflict. However, they were very quick to put their fighter in for the competition. Even US giants vied for a spot knowing fully well that the full TOT which was part of the deal would never go down well with Congress being against basic US policy. Also how do you see the apparent buckling under of your PM on the TOT deal only to indicate to buy 36 platforms. My guess is this would be the only Rafales that india buys but who knows what the future holds.
Araz

European stuff is as much sanction prone.

Cannot deny that!! Agreed.
Araz

Sir both J-31 and J-20 are far away and they are not the answer to Rafale we need J-10 B to counter 4.5 Generation fleet of India we are not going to use J-20 or J-31 for that

Zarvan.
If you have a knee jerk movement to every move your adversary makes you will go bankrupt. Learn to live within your means. The JFT does fine for the moment. I have already posted in this regards on another section on why I feel all this jumping about is unnecessary. Look at the time line of Rafale delivery and setup when the deal is not formally signed and then tell me whether the J31 is really that far away.
Araz

 

[tsinga]

Howsoever you look at it, in the global scheme of things and the great game that goes on, this aspect and effect of the deal cannot be denied. France walked out of the Radar and avionics deal and Gripen gently denied the offer on grounds of not selling to areas in conflict. However, they were very quick to put their fighter in for the competition. Even US giants vied for a spot knowing fully well that the full TOT which was part of the deal would never go down well with Congress being against basic US policy. Also how do you see the apparent buckling under of your PM on the TOT deal only to indicate to buy 36 platforms. My guess is this would be the only Rafales that india buys but who knows what the future holds.
Araz

I am not denying the consequential effect of the deal going on for a decade. I am just pointing out that Indian bureaucracy is notoriously slow - taking a decade to finalize on a platform is normal. In itself, it is not a plot geared against Pakistan.

As far as why PM Modi cancelled ToT on Rafale and limited numbers - the answer is very clear and very simple. We have no money for that kind of a deal. Congress has blown the treasury on subsidies and doleouts. And to save face, they never say no to any defence deal, but they keep delaying it.

This is the problem Modi inherited. And to solve this and other such crisis in MoD and FinMin, herculean efforts are being undertaken.


I wrote it in another post.

Here:
It is the constant follies of the previous government all manifesting themselves. The problems started from the get go.
The IAF was not given a budget in the first place. They were simply told to select the aircraft they want. So IAF with abandon selected the most technologically advanced plane without any cost considerations.

Secondly, the Government has failed to make IAF or IA/IN make a choice within its budget. They are asked to select what they want and then the govt may or may not give it.

The better way - as the current DM - is doing is tell the forces the budget they have to procure and make do with the best they can under it.


It is not that the economy is growing worse, its that Modi govt is doing plain talk and not indulging in obfuscation like the previous government did - i.e. - promise everything to everyone and never deliver anything. They are pragmatic and are promising only what they can deliver - and with specific timelines. The last govt over a decade increasingly emptied the treasury with the highest subsidy doleouts in the world.

Thirdly, the previous government over promised and rarely delivered. They kept sanctioning projects and never getting them completed. Delay in negotiations was another tactic they used so as to not buy. A glaring example that has recently emerged- the last govt passed the MSC(Mountain Strike Corps) in its totality but did not allocate a single rupee towards it. So the Army started forming and arming the MSC with its war reserves which were getting depleted close to the point of panic! There are countless examples of such incompetence and mischief of the last govt to project something while doing the opposite.


You might not know this - but there is a reason why the current DM - Manohar Parrikar was brought in. He was the second most competent of all Chief Ministers in India. And the face of BJP in Goa. He is an IIT-ian and has transformed Goa's economy over the last decade from being one of the most debt ridden ones to one of the most prosperous in India.

The fact that he was literally parachuted as the Defence Minister at massive electoral cost to BJP (being the face and political vote catcher) of BJP in Goa 5 months after the new govt took charge, should tell you the absolute $hit the Defence Ministry was when Modi Govt took charge. He is a performer and takes bold decisions.

He is steadily transforming the MoD, taking tough decisions when the last DM did absolutely nothing. Watch this space, you will find that in the coming 5 years, systemic changes will become visible to all.
Read:
The price India is paying for A.K. Antony’s comatose tenure

 

[Zarvan]

Howsoever you look at it, in the global scheme of things and the great game that goes on, this aspect and effect of the deal cannot be denied. France walked out of the Radar and avionics deal and Gripen gently denied the offer on grounds of not selling to areas in conflict. However, they were very quick to put their fighter in for the competition. Even US giants vied for a spot knowing fully well that the full TOT which was part of the deal would never go down well with Congress being against basic US policy. Also how do you see the apparent buckling under of your PM on the TOT deal only to indicate to buy 36 platforms. My guess is this would be the only Rafales that india buys but who knows what the future holds.
Araz


Cannot deny that!! Agreed.
Araz


Zarvan.
If you have a knee jerk movement to every move your adversary makes you will go bankrupt. Learn to live within your means. The JFT does fine for the moment. I have already posted in this regards on another section on why I feel all this jumping about is unnecessary. Look at the time line of Rafale delivery and setup when the deal is not formally signed and then tell me whether the J31 is really that far away.
Araz

Sir I don't know but news are again from Janes to many other reports that Pakistan is interested in J-10 and let see in next few days I think more news would come can't say what happens

 

[Donatello]

Howsoever you look at it, in the global scheme of things and the great game that goes on, this aspect and effect of the deal cannot be denied. France walked out of the Radar and avionics deal and Gripen gently denied the offer on grounds of not selling to areas in conflict. However, they were very quick to put their fighter in for the competition. Even US giants vied for a spot knowing fully well that the full TOT which was part of the deal would never go down well with Congress being against basic US policy. Also how do you see the apparent buckling under of your PM on the TOT deal only to indicate to buy 36 platforms. My guess is this would be the only Rafales that india buys but who knows what the future holds.
Araz

Even the French refused the ToT as India imagined it. No way any US firm will do that.

 

[araz]

Sir I don't know but news are again from Janes to many other reports that Pakistan is interested in J-10 and let see in next few days I think more news would come can't say what happens

Fair enough. Lets wait and see. But it would be a wrong decision by PAF as far as I am concerned.
Araz

 

[IND151]

It took Indians a decade to decide on their MMRCA and three years after selecting the Rafale, it only orders two squadron which if all goes well, the first aircraft will be inducted in another two years time. The MKI is nothing new, i rather have more surprises like the Jordanian F-16s than to sit and wait for paint to dry.

You are comparing a barnd new platform with one which has just 15 to 20 years life left and doesnt come with AESA. (you will be getting Block 15 not Block 60).

The MKI is nothing new

Yes. But we already more than 140 of them and total will be 272.

Then dosens of them will be converted to carry Brahmos (IAF already received first Modified MKI which can carry Brahmos.)

Then there is Super MKI and plans to equip MKIs with Brahmos NG, MKI will carry three Brahmos NGs.

 

[araz]

I am not denying the consequential effect of the deal going on for a decade. I am just pointing out that Indian bureaucracy is notoriously slow - taking a decade to finalize on a platform is normal. In itself, it is not a plot geared against Pakistan.

As far as why PM Modi cancelled ToT on Rafale and limited numbers - the answer is very clear and very simple. We have no money for that kind of a deal. Congress has blown the treasury on subsidies and doleouts. And to save face, they never say no to any defence deal, but they keep delaying it.

This is the problem Modi inherited. And to solve this and other such crisis in MoD and FinMin, herculean efforts are being undertaken.


I wrote it in another post.

Here:
It is the constant follies of the previous government all manifesting themselves. The problems started from the get go.
The IAF was not given a budget in the first place. They were simply told to select the aircraft they want. So IAF with abandon selected the most technologically advanced plane without any cost considerations.

Secondly, the Government has failed to make IAF or IA/IN make a choice within its budget. They are asked to select what they want and then the govt may or may not give it.

The better way - as the current DM - is doing is tell the forces the budget they have to procure and make do with the best they can under it.


It is not that the economy is growing worse, its that Modi govt is doing plain talk and not indulging in obfuscation like the previous government did - i.e. - promise everything to everyone and never deliver anything. They are pragmatic and are promising only what they can deliver - and with specific timelines. The last govt over a decade increasingly emptied the treasury with the highest subsidy doleouts in the world.

Thirdly, the previous government over promised and rarely delivered. They kept sanctioning projects and never getting them completed. Delay in negotiations was another tactic they used so as to not buy. A glaring example that has recently emerged- the last govt passed the MSC(Mountain Strike Corps) in its totality but did not allocate a single rupee towards it. So the Army started forming and arming the MSC with its war reserves which were getting depleted close to the point of panic! There are countless examples of such incompetence and mischief of the last govt to project something while doing the opposite.


You might not know this - but there is a reason why the current DM - Manohar Parrikar was brought in. He was the second most competent of all Chief Ministers in India. And the face of BJP in Goa. He is an IIT-ian and has transformed Goa's economy over the last decade from being one of the most debt ridden ones to one of the most prosperous in India.

The fact that he was literally parachuted as the Defence Minister at massive electoral cost to BJP (being the face and political vote catcher) of BJP in Goa 5 months after the new govt took charge, should tell you the absolute $hit the Defence Ministry was when Modi Govt took charge. He is a performer and takes bold decisions.

He is steadily transforming the MoD, taking tough decisions when the last DM did absolutely nothing. Watch this space, you will find that in the coming 5 years, systemic changes will become visible to all.
Read:
The price India is paying for A.K. Antony’s comatose tenure

I have read the article. The fact remains that your Government is not a stupid one.It has people who are far more knowledgeable than we are led to believe. You have achieved in 3 billion what you would have blown 20 billion for(I far more stupid idea). The tech is in your hands, it is now upto you what you do with it. This is the way the world goes.
Araz