Misconception: ‘Pakistan perceived in Europe as terrorist state’

[Desertfalcon]

I think we both know "that version" was scripted for public consumption only. You have spent time in uniform, you'd be smart enough to know how things look like are not how they are made to happen.

True, I have spent many years in uniform and have read and seen much of the very good reporting on what happened. In my experience, most things are as they are generally reported to be and 90%+ of about every conspiracy theory is not much more than fantasy.

As I said, not much to reveal there as it has been pretty thoroughly documented down to the details of how OBL was found. I have seen some of the seal team members interviewed and their accounts, and the investigative reporters accounts, are the same. There are half a dozen good reports on the subject, produced by reputable and independent reporters. In the USA, any conspiracy theory that had any evidence or merit would be reported in a heartbeat.

 

[Mr.Nair]

 

[Desertfalcon]

Both OBL and Americans helicopters are still not stealthy and good enough that they will reach the heart of Pakistan army and no one will notice

They were noticed. It was less a matter of stealth and more a matter of...they were helicopters. I started my military career in mobile ground tactical radar, and helicopters flying at low level are almost impossible to detect, no matter what. Especially as Pakistan's air defences are mostly oriented toward India, not Afghanistan. That is how we began the first Gulf War against Saddam, btw. Our Apache gunships infiltrated, undetected, and took out key Iraq air defence units. With OBL, the SEAL teams just got in and out before anyone reacted, but they were detected.

"Mr. Bashir said that Pakistan had scrambled two F-16 fighter jets after becoming aware of the attack. A confrontation was averted only because they arrived on the scene after the U.S. helicopters involved in the raid had crossed back into Afghan air space."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704810504576305033789955132

 

[CHD]

They were noticed. It was less a matter of stealth and more a matter of...they were helicopters. I started my military career in mobile ground tactical radar, and helicopters flying at low level are almost impossible to detect, no matter what. Especially as Pakistan's air defences are mostly oriented toward India, not Afghanistan. That is how we began the first Gulf War against Saddam, btw. Our Apache gunships infiltrated, undetected, and took out key Iraq air defence units. With OBL, the SEAL teams just got in and out before anyone reacted, but they were detected.

"Mr. Bashir said that Pakistan had scrambled two F-16 fighter jets after becoming aware of the attack. A confrontation was averted only because they arrived on the scene after the U.S. helicopters involved in the raid had crossed back into Afghan air space."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704810504576305033789955132

Commercial plan that hit Pentagon one of the most secured building in the world, was that plane also stealth?

 

[The Sandman]

Seriously? there were just 3 coups he is exaggerating it but as always whenever there is anything about Pakistan you will find indians barking against us sigh don't know why they're so obsessed with us. @Moonlight @django comments check kro

 

[livingdead]

I think what really happened has been pretty thoroughly documented.

I'm guessing you believe in some alternate history or conspiracy theory about it?

ISI was very likely complicit in death of osama bin laden, all these talk of 'all our radars pointed to east' is rubbish, for pakistani public consumption, so is fake outrage of loss of sovereignty. I am sorry but operation was not really hollywood material. its carefully orchestrated drama. we dont know whether cia found it first or isi tipped off(more likely cia found it first and did a bargain with isi. The death of obl was purely symbolic, he was not in charge of any real operation)


what is not yet known, is whether isi was also complicit in keeping obl there in first place... I suspect they were.

 

[Desertfalcon]

Commercial plan that hit Pentagon one of the most secured building in the world, was that plane also stealth?

No. I didn't have to be. The Pentagon’s security in 2001 never envisioned a defence against an airliner full of people being flown into it. I don't know how one could defend against that 24/7 anyway. Having been in the Pentagon on a couple of occasions, most or their security was entrance guards and metal detectors you have to go through and ID checks. That was about it. I'm sure it's different since 9/11 but that was how it was before the attack.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

No need for accpetance. Stop chasing after people and establish yourself and focus on your Muslim brothers. Pakistan wasn't created to be accepted by Europeans. Let them think whatever they want. The world doesn't revolve around them. They have some nerve calling whatever nation they want a "terrorist state." Look how the demonised the Russians. I guarantee half of them do even know the sacrfices young and old Pakistani soldiers have made in Shawal and Tirah valleys lately. If Pakistan wasn't a Muslim nation this discussion would not have occured. How come know one branded the US as a terrorist state when they supported militants in Afghanistan or Syria or Libya and how come know one branded them terrorist when they invaded Iraq and found NO WMDs? For people that have supported militany groups in the past and killed each other they're in no position to ignorantly declare if Pakistan is a terrorist state. It is distractions like these that keep Pakistan from reaching it's full potential.

"With faith, discipline and selfless devotion to duty, there is noting worthwhile that you cannot achieve"

- Muhammad Ali Jinnah

 

[Djinn]

I as a Pakistani consider Europeans and US to be terrorists and that's not it they are also leading a war against Islam. They have killed more innocent people than ISIS and Alqaeeda combined.

 

[Desertfalcon]

ISI was very likely complicit in death of osama bin laden, all these talk of 'all our radars pointed to east' is rubbish, for pakistani public consumption, so is fake outrage of loss of sovereignty. I am sorry but operation was not really hollywood material. its carefully orchestrated drama. we dont know whether cia found it first or isi tipped off(more likely cia found it first and did a bargain with isi. The death of obl was purely symbolic, he was not in charge of any real operation)


what is not yet known, is whether isi was also complicit in keeping obl there in first place... I suspect they were.

Well it's not "rubbish". It's just the nature of these kinds of operations. It didn't go 100% smoothly. A helicopter malfunctioned and crashed. They were detected by Pakistani air defences. I've been in air defence and can imagine quite well, how things must have gone. It has nothing to do with any lack of professionalism, it's just that Pakistan's air defences just like most countries, are geared toward an attack on their forces, not some brief radar hits on a small helicopter force. If Canada launched a helicopter born raid into the US, it would either probably go undetected or if it was detected, it would entail a certain lag time and confusion as to what it was. I have no doubt that Pakistan's commanders who got reports on a few slow moving intermittent radar hits probably went through allot of phone and radio calls trying to figure out if it was a possible Pak military or police operation that someone dropped the ball on notifying the appropriate people on, or civilian traffic, etc. What they did know was that it was not an attack on Pakistani forces so that engendered some time lag in trying to ascertain what was going on. The SEAL team was in and out relatively quickly. It's nothing against Pakistan, it's just the nature of how it happened and what was known.

As for ISI, if they DID know, they apparently kept it to themselves and the idea that they knew, has repeatedly been disavowed by the Pakistan government from the president on down.

 

[livingdead]

Well it's not "rubbish". It's just the nature of these kinds of operations. It didn't go 100% smoothly. A helicopter malfunctioned and crashed. They were detected by Pakistani air defences. I've been in air defence and can imagine quite well, how things must have gone. It has nothing to do with any lack of professionalism, it's just that Pakistan's air defences just like most countries, are geared toward an attack on their forces, not some brief radar hits on a small helicopter force. If Canada launched a helicopter born raid into the US, it would either probably go undetected or if it was detected, it would entail a certain lag time and confusion as to what it was. I have no doubt that Pakistan's commanders who got reports on a few slow moving intermittent radar hits probably went through allot of phone and radio calls trying to figure out if it was a possible Pak military or police operation that someone dropped the ball on notifying the appropriate people on, or civilian traffic, etc. What they did know was that it was not an attack on Pakistani forces so that engendered some time lag in trying to ascertain what was going on. The SEAL team was in and out relatively quickly. It's nothing against Pakistan, it's just the nature of how it happened and what was known.

As for ISI, if they DID know, they apparently kept it to themselves and the idea that they knew, has repeatedly been disavowed by the Pakistan government from the president on down.

if you read between the lips of american leadership, most of them are almost apologetic that they caused trouble in pakistan(sorry we had to kill the old fella but we will make up with some goodies). Was it any other country, war drums will be beating, but with pakistan, no. More F16 sales, more thank you notes for fighting war on terror.

There is complicity at highest level of leadership on both sides, its only minions who are outraged because they dont know(how dare pakistan keep obl, they are not really our allies... or how dare american violate our border)

 

[SQ8]

Well it's not "rubbish". It's just the nature of these kinds of operations. It didn't go 100% smoothly. A helicopter malfunctioned and crashed. They were detected by Pakistani air defences. I've been in air defence and can imagine quite well, how things must have gone. It has nothing to do with any lack of professionalism, it's just that Pakistan's air defences just like most countries, are geared toward an attack on their forces, not some brief radar hits on a small helicopter force. If Canada launched a helicopter born raid into the US, it would either probably go undetected or if it was detected, it would entail a certain lag time and confusion as to what it was. I have no doubt that Pakistan's commanders who got reports on a few slow moving intermittent radar hits probably went through allot of phone and radio calls trying to figure out if it was a possible Pak military or police operation that someone dropped the ball on notifying the appropriate people on, or civilian traffic, etc. What they did know was that it was not an attack on Pakistani forces so that engendered some time lag in trying to ascertain what was going on. The SEAL team was in and out relatively quickly. It's nothing against Pakistan, it's just the nature of how it happened and what was known.

As for ISI, if they DID know, they apparently kept it to themselves and the idea that they knew, has repeatedly been disavowed by the Pakistan government from the president on down.

What is important regarding that incident is:
1. that OBL WAS HERE. I can swear on whatever sacred entity anyone needs me to.
2. Before he was killed, there were CIA teams working with the ISI to go after him.

Now, within these CIA teams who were cooperating with the ISI; there were other teams within the ISI operating completely independent of these teams working against other CIA teams (also operating independent) looking for Pakistan's nuclear arsenal or meeting with separatist leaders(baloch, hunza , JSQM etc).
There were other ISI teams looking for AQ leadership in Musharraf's bounty scheme and those elements who wanted to use them as leverage for US funds.
There were/are likely extremist sympathizers within the Pakistani Establishment just as there were anti-Pakistan elements within the US establishment prior to 2001. Each of these folks would take aghast to working with the other and used their best efforts to influence policy to that effect.

How and what transpired is anyone's guess, but I am very inclined to believe that OBL had supporters within the ISI (if not official tacit support, a section of operatives and sympathizers).Whether they brought him to Abottabad or otherwise is not something I care to speculate upon but rather I am focusing on intra agency fights.
Case in point is the current situation in Syria where essentially US proxies are fighting each other as well as Assad. Each section has its own team and those teams are working to push forward their "guys".

Similar situations have happened in Pakistan and its usage of extremist militants for its requirements(sadly when Pakistan does it , its terrorism but the rest of the world is washed with disinfectant no matter how dirty their own hands are). Which brings us to the point of this thread, Pakistan has engaged in the usage of proxy militancy after discovering its benefits in the Afghan war. Whereas that initial usage was labelled by west as supporting freedom because it suited the west's narrative(and it is they who control and consume the majority of media), today it is a terrorist because the interests do not converge.

Is there anything to be ashamed of? Yes.. and No. Yes, because it is the manipulation of humans for a selfish cause and also results in some of the hatred being pushed going out of control and creating havoc at home.
No..because humans from the day they killed each other for the first time have used asymmetric attacks on each other for promoting their causes.

Is it something to be worried about? YES: Currently we are a third world dump due to various issues in our society ranging from religious hatred and bigotry to ethnic fault lines. Our state is dependant upon the good graces of the world too survive in these times since we do not have the national cohesion like Iran nor social submission like North Korea to survive without having "friends". Hence, we need to push a positive image regardless of failures or successes with a methodical approach that is both scalpel like and blunt force.

 

[Moon]

It's not a perception it's a fact

For who? A person who hasn't even lived in Pakistan, and watched the country through a box in his living room?.

 

[SQ8]

For who? A person who hasn't even lived in Pakistan, and watched the country through a box in his living room?.

It is a fact that it is summer during Christmas, and it is a fact that it is cold during Christmas.

 

[Spectre]

What is important regarding that incident is:
1. that OBL WAS HERE. I can swear on whatever sacred entity anyone needs me to.
2. Before he was killed, there were CIA teams working with the ISI to go after him.

Now, within these CIA teams who were cooperating with the ISI; there were other teams within the ISI operating completely independent of these teams working against other CIA teams (also operating independent) looking for Pakistan's nuclear arsenal or meeting with separatist leaders(baloch, hunza , JSQM etc).
There were other ISI teams looking for AQ leadership in Musharraf's bounty scheme and those elements who wanted to use them as leverage for US funds.
There were/are likely extremist sympathizers within the Pakistani Establishment just as there were anti-Pakistan elements within the US establishment prior to 2001. Each of these folks would take aghast to working with the other and used their best efforts to influence policy to that effect.

How and what transpired is anyone's guess, but I am very inclined to believe that OBL had supporters within the ISI (if not official tacit support, a section of operatives and sympathizers).Whether they brought him to Abottabad or otherwise is not something I care to speculate upon but rather I am focusing on intra agency fights.
Case in point is the current situation in Syria where essentially US proxies are fighting each other as well as Assad. Each section has its own team and those teams are working to push forward their "guys".

Similar situations have happened in Pakistan and its usage of extremist militants for its requirements(sadly when Pakistan does it , its terrorism but the rest of the world is washed with disinfectant no matter how dirty their own hands are). Which brings us to the point of this thread, Pakistan has engaged in the usage of proxy militancy after discovering its benefits in the Afghan war. Whereas that initial usage was labelled by west as supporting freedom because it suited the west's narrative(and it is they who control and consume the majority of media), today it is a terrorist because the interests do not converge.

Is there anything to be ashamed of? Yes.. and No. Yes, because it is the manipulation of humans for a selfish cause and also results in some of the hatred being pushed going out of control and creating havoc at home.
No..because humans from the day they killed each other for the first time have used asymmetric attacks on each other for promoting their causes.

Is it something to be worried about? YES: Currently we are a third world dump due to various issues in our society ranging from religious hatred and bigotry to ethnic fault lines. Our state is dependant upon the good graces of the world too survive in these times since we do not have the national cohesion like Iran nor social submission like North Korea to survive without having "friends". Hence, we need to push a positive image regardless of failures or successes with a methodical approach that is both scalpel like and blunt force.

So the refrain is since everyone does it, it's justified? Not that surprising, there have been only two (unofficial) commandments which apply in this shady world of proxies - 1. Don't get caught. 2. Don't loose