Military's role in the identity of Pakistan

[Zarrar Alvi]

lol too much makeup yara ...

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Take the example of PML N - its the largest party in Punjab and its full of ethnic Kashmiri - this would not happen in Baluchistan, in Sindh, in KP or anywhere else in the region and yet not even their most ardent detractors here in Punjab have thrown a racial slur at them or asked why are Punjabis being ruled by a bunch of Immigrants from the North ?

I think somethings are worth praising - Punjab's Pluralism is one of those things & thats why, within Pakistan, I take great pride in calling myself a Punjabi !

P.S The reason people stare at you when you speak Punjabi in a suit-piece is because you speak Gulabi Punjabi !

Really? Let me remind you that bilour family and haji adeel are hindki, yet they are top leaders of ANP. Zafar iqbal jaghra of PML-N is also hindki.
Kashmiris are readily welcomed in punjab but the rest specially pashtuns are not easily accepted in punjabi society. Pashtuns are viewed with suspicion, some of pashtuns permenantly settled in punjab have told me that punjabi mothers dont allow their kids any where around a pashtun even if he is their neighbour settled for decades, the stereotype prevalent in punjab is that pashtuns kidnap kids. When they told me about this, i remembered that its usually a pathan in urdu children stories, who kidnaps children in bori.

 

[nana41]

@INDIC
Punjab was the one of the dominant provinces of British India, the canal colonies boom brought agricultural boom in semi-arid Punjab and while most of the soldiers in British Indian army were from Punjab which was inherited by Pakistan. So after partition they were already in the dominance to large extent and military dictatorship gave them overall dominance unlike the Bengalis of East Pakistan who were impoverished.

So I should include that Punjab had or still has dominance in agriculture and army over the rest of the provinces?

The word "Dominance" seems to give sinister impression,and also it does not fit ,when you say South,S/west,North and N/west Punjab are not at par with the central Punjab.Pre-eminence or majority?.

 

[INDIC]

How many times must I repeat myself ?

The people of Mirpur are from all over Kashmir including the Kashmir Valley and AJK was formed as a Government-in-Exile to the princely state of J&K hence why both from an ethnic and a sub-national sense they're referred to as Kashmiris !

The people from GB on the other hand are neither ethnic Kashmiris nor are they representing the Government-in-Exile as the people of AJK are !

The Kashmiri Identity isn't talked about in an 'ethnic' sense whenever some political issue is talked about....it is talked about in a political sense hence why the blanket term 'Kashmiri' is used to refer to all as it has been used as far back as one can remember.

You are a bit uninformed, Gilgit-Baltistan was separated from this so called AJK in mid 1950s to form Northern Areas directly under federal government. I was right, if you want to use Kashmiri in political sense it should be extended to Gilgit-Baltistan also. The political perception that Mirpuris are Kashmiris and Gilgit-Baltistan is not Kashmiris is created in Pakistan. I am aware of the ethnic composition of entire Kashmir and Kashmiris only form majority in the valley.

lol too much makeup yara ...

Even more colourful makeup is popular in Pakistan, sometimes I feel Pakistani girls have dipped their face in the basket full of dust.

 

[Armstrong]

You are a bit uninformed, Gilgit-Baltistan was separated from this so called AJK in mid 1950s to form Northern Areas directly under federal government. I was right, if you want to use Kashmiri in political sense it should be extended to Gilgit-Baltistan also. The political perception that Mirpuris are Kashmiris and Gilgit-Baltistan is not Kashmiris is created in Pakistan. I am aware of the ethnic composition of entire Kashmir and Kashmiris only form majority in the valley.

No I am not a bit misinformed both GB and AJK were handled by the same Kashmir Affairs Committee or its bureaucratic precursor even when the both of them were treated as two separate administrative units; however that is irrelevant what is, however, relevant is the fact that the Northern Areas became GB because they wanted to be disassociated from the Kashmir Issue and be reintegrated into Pakistan as a Province hence why even in a political sense we don't use the term 'Kashmiris' for them.

AJK on the other hand was fashioned as a Government-in-Exile to represent the whole of Jammu and Kashmir hence why the term 'Kashmiri' is used for citizens of AJK in much the same way the term Punjabi is used for the domicile holders of Punjab despite there being more non-ethnic Punjabis than the entire populations of KP and Baluchistan combined or why you hear the terms Urdu speaking Sindhis and Sindhi speaking Sindhis !

At any rate I can't for the life of me understand why you Indians get bogged down in absolutely ludicrous discussions of whether XYZ ought to be called a 'Kashmiri' or not - Its just a word...a pars pro toto for citizens of Jammu and Kashmir...it doesn't mean that a Pahari or a Ladakhi metamorphs into an ethnic Kashmiri nor does it change our respective stances on the Kashmir Issue !

 

[nana41]

Really? Let me remind you that bilour family and haji adeel are hindki, yet they are top leaders of ANP. Zafar iqbal jaghra of PML-N is also hindki.
Kashmiris are readily welcomed in punjab but the rest specially pashtuns are not easily accepted in punjabi society. Pashtuns are viewed with suspicion, some of pashtuns permenantly settled in punjab have told me that punjabi mothers dont allow their kids any where around a pashtun even if he is their neighbour settled for decades, the stereotype prevalent in punjab is that pashtuns kidnap kids. When they told me about this, i remembered that its usually a pathan in urdu children stories, who kidnaps children in bori.

I have never read you before,but apart from this bit about child kidnapping(no body knows how it all started) you seem to have more prejudice than knowledge of relationships between Punjabi-Patthan.This was a kind of propaganda spread by Surkhposh of Ghaffar Khan,because he believed in Patthan,Punjabi,Kashmiri,Gujrati,Marathee,Bangali or Hindustani,but not in Hindu OR Muslim.This BAD-NASEEB never had a moment to sit in the Majlis of Allama Iqbal(ra) and learn what Quraan says,but spent his entire life listening to Gandhi Sahab.BTW my Daughter in law is a Durrani.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Take the example of PML N - its the largest party in Punjab and its full of ethnic Kashmiri - this would not happen in Baluchistan, in Sindh, in KP or anywhere else in the region and yet not even their most ardent detractors here in Punjab have thrown a racial slur at them or asked why are Punjabis being ruled by a bunch of Immigrants from the North ?

I think somethings are worth praising - Punjab's Pluralism is one of those things & thats why, within Pakistan, I take great pride in calling myself a Punjabi !

P.S The reason people stare at you when you speak Punjabi in a suit-piece is because you speak Gulabi Punjabi !

Really? Let me remind you that bilour family and haji adeel are hindki, yet they are top leaders of ANP. Zafar iqbal jaghra of PML-N is also hindki.
Kashmiris are readily welcomed in punjab but the rest specially pashtuns are not easily accepted in punjabi society. Pashtuns are viewed with suspicion, some of pashtuns permenantly settled in punjab have told me that punjabi mothers dont allow their kids any where around a pashtun even if he is their neighbour settled for decades, the stereotype prevalent in punjab is that pashtuns kidnap kids. When they told me about this, i remembered that its usually a pathan in urdu children stories, who kidnaps children in bori.

 

[jatt+gutts]

Yea i think so, he is mentioned as either infidel or hindu by ghaznavi sources. Could be buddhist, as bamiyan, ghor regions has buddhist statues

he must be hindu ... there are lot of hindus in Amritsar with last name suri. our geography teacher was madam suri

 

[INDIC]

No I am not a bit misinformed both GB and AJK were handled by the same Kashmir Affairs Committee or its bureaucratic precursor even when the both of them were treated as two separate administrative units; however that is irrelevant what is, however, relevant is the fact that the Northern Areas became GB because they wanted to be disassociated from the Kashmir Issue and be reintegrated into Pakistan as a Province hence why even in a political sense we don't use the term 'Kashmiris' for them.

AJK on the other hand was fashioned as a Government-in-Exile to represent the whole of Jammu and Kashmir hence why the term 'Kashmiri' is used for citizens of AJK in much the same way the term Punjabi is used for the domicile holders of Punjab despite there being more non-ethnic Punjabis than the entire populations of KP and Baluchistan combined or why you hear the terms Urdu speaking Sindhis and Sindhi speaking Sindhis !

At any rate I can't for the life of me understand why you Indians get bogged down in absolutely ludicrous discussions of whether XYZ ought to be called a 'Kashmiri' or not - Its just a word...a pars pro toto for citizens of Jammu and Kashmir...it doesn't mean that a Pahari or a Ladakhi metamorphs into an ethnic Kashmiri nor does it change our respective stances on the Kashmir Issue !

You sure about it, Gigit-Baltistan was given an assembly just few years back, Gilgit-Baltistan was separated because of military importance of the region and border with China.

Yea i think so, he is mentioned as either infidel or hindu by ghaznavi sources. Could be buddhist, as bamiyan, ghor regions has buddhist statues

Suri is also used as a surname by Hindus. You may heard of actor Sanjay Suri.

 

[nana41]

My nanima is a wahabbi by her own admittance while my nana is Ahle sunnah, despite that my nani while disapproving of naats and stuff like that never says anything if someone puts them on and even goes to those gatherings where they do talawat and naats and stuff once in a while. Unless she literally told you she was wahabbi you would not know at all.

Believe me, i do not know much about these wahabi,sunni,ehl e hadees,shia or what not, and its on purpose,because it only pollute your mind.I try to understand Quraan and read Allama Iqbal(ra),but I fully agree with your NANI-AMMAN JAAN,because history tells us that non of our SAHABA E KARAM ever sang a NAAT. This is what i call "add on Islam" coming from UJJAM and Ganga/Jumna.

 

[Progressive1]

You sure about it, Gigit-Baltistan was given an assembly just few years back, Gilgit-Baltistan was separated because of military importance of the region and border with China.



.

No It was separated because they have very unique cultural and social history of their own(Hunza and Gilgit are somewhat culturally close to Chitral in KPK), they are politically connected to Kashmir cause(because of dogra rule of princely state) this doesnt mean that they should suffer by not allowing them separate importance for development etc . They are already suffering because of Kashmir cause as Pak cant givr them official provincial status atm because of its stand on Kashmir(they are some of the most loyal Pakistani community), they very much deserve some "de fecto" compensations

 

[pakdefender]

The OP sounds like a false flagger undian

and @Shahmir kashmir

I am a girl, but i dont even think that should be relevant....
it's not "required" a thesis about punjabification...
I do require, however, a thesis...
I studied International Relations...and I, myself, chose it to be about Pakistan.... My idea was to explain how Pakistan is internally, so it would be better understood this region,

most of my friends have a thesis about Mexican drugs issues, Europe, USA migration, even China's developments, Middle Easts conflicts, but i am bored of those topics ... you would too, if for 5 years those are the everyday topics!!!

In Mexico, and Latin America, there is no interest on these topics, most people set for what they watch on tv, which is attacks, "terrorism", and no one knows exactly what is going on. I am not saying that my thesis will be the best thesis ever, but I do want give my best , not just a piece of paper to get my degree

it was not my intention to make you guys "going at each other" ... Even my thesis is not focused on Punjab,
but i had in mind explaining all the provinces and their current situation, since i had read "Pakistan a Hard Country" and "Pakistan" by Ana Ballesteros a spanish lady which made me realized how different Pakistan from what I am used to...

my advisor told be about this punjabization, most of you will think he is biased (since he is Afghan) but I think he just told me because it would be "interesting" to mention...
believe ...even professors from my University (and most universities in my country) with PHd... know basically nothing about Pakistan or in that case, South Asia or Central Asia....

if any mods want to check my IP i have absolutely no problem with that... I am not ashamed of being Mexican, i am not ashamed to be passionate about your country.

For the moment you are a suspect , you sound like an indian

Please post published work of your adviser , if he has done his PhD he has to have published work in Journals and Conferences ,

 

[jatt+gutts]

end of the day why is punjabization bad..Punjabi culture is cool anyone come in contact with Punjabis get punjabicised. as far as Kashmir is concerned it was ruled by Punjabis before british and always been ruled by outsiders.




The Punjabization of India


by HINDUSTAN TIMES SUNDAY MAGAZINE

"Chak de India!"

It burst on the consciousness of the nation as a sporting anthem that spoke to the patriot in every one of us. "Chak de India", it screamed, ostensibly to cheer on the Indian women's hockey team, in a hit movie of the same name.

But, before you could say "King Khan", it had passed over into the language. Now, everyone is chanting "Chak de" at the slightest provocation, using it to enthuse India - and Indians - to do better in every sphere. Television channels employ this magic phrase to title their programmes and banners carrying the slogan appear every time an Indian team plays any kind of sport, as the song acquires a certain universal resonance.

"Chak de India" resonated with me as well, but on a different level. Whenever I heard anyone shouting out the slogan, it reminded me yet again that there was no denying the Punjabization of India.

If you think this sounds a bit far-fetched, just bear with me.

At the literal level, there is no arguing with the Punjabi origins of this phrase. "Chak de phatte" is the traditional exhortation used in almost every situation, from a wedding party to a night out with the boys, to the village kabaddi game. It has become familiar to the rest of India through innumerable bhangra numbers and was introduced to the world by Apache Indian (remember him?) in the 90s.

But even though Punjabi is my mother tongue, I am always stumped when someone asks what this phrase means exactly.

Short answer is: Umm, I'm not too sure. I know when it is used and what it signifies. But how do you translate "Chak de"? Sorry, haven't a clue. The closest I come to explaining it is to say that it means something like raising the roof. Or maybe, raising hell?

But the point is that none of this matters. What does is that the catchiness of this phrase has caught the imagination of the nation. And everyone from Kashmir to Kochi is singing along to its thumping beat. It doesn't matter where you come from or where you live. So long as you are Indian, a little bit of Punjab lives on your tongue.

It does so in more ways than one, too.

Bengalis may rave about the delicacy and refinement of their cuisine, Gujaratis ramble on about their understanding of flavours, and Lucknow and Hyderabad can argue long and hard about the relative merits of their particular style of biryani. But when it comes to Indian food that has popular appeal, it's Punjabi all the way.

Meen mioly and chingri malai curry are all very well, but it's mutter paneer and mutton kebabs that move.

It is now become something of a cliché to say that chicken tikka masala is the most popular dish in the U.K., but there it is. What the world knows as Indian food is actually Punjabi food. Certainly more people have heard of dal makhni than have visited Dal Lake. To update that old Khalistani brag: tandoori chicken is the national bird of India. Why, it's even a pizza topping now!

The influence of Punjab goes beyond our dining tables, though. It also decides how most Indian women dress today. The times when the sari was the most visible outfit on Indian streets are over. These days, it is the ubiquity of the salwar kameez that strikes you, no matter where you travel in this country. Whether it is a village in Bihar, a Goan beach, a small town in the Hindi heartland or the deep South, or cosmopolitan metros like Mumbai, Delhi or Bangalore, the salwaar kameez is everywhere.

It has been adopted as the outfit of choice by Indian women, wherever they may live. It may take on different shapes and styles in various parts of the country and at opposite ends of the social spectrum, but its Punjabi provenance remains beyond a shadow of doubt.

It could be the Patiala salwar and short kurti worn by Rani Mukerji (Bunty Aur Babli) that launched a million knock-offs, a high fashion take on the style staple by some Indian designer, or the kind of printed set that traditional middle class women
have made their own, but the salwar kameez crops up all over.

And then, there is the music. You just have to turn it on and Punjabi shoulders begin to shake with the beat. Now, they have infected the rest of India with this malaise as well. The bhangra beat has taken over, it resounds in our discos and nightclubs.

Dance sequences in Hindi movies owe a substantial debt to the folk dances of Punjab. The balle-balle routine has become an integral part of baraats (wedding processions) in every part of this country. And whether it is Durga or Ganesh (Hindu idols) that are taken for immersion, either in Calcutta or Mumbai, they are escorted by devotees dancing along Punjabi-style.

Even our national identity is beginning to reflect the best of Punjab. The new India is not characterized by the brooding intensity of Bengal, the nerdy intellectualism of the South, or even the machismo of feudal Rajasthan.

No, it is the passion and pride of Punjab that describes it best. It is the vim and vigour of this Northern state, its go-getting,
can-do spirit that seems to prevail.

As the slogan goes, "Chak de ...!"

 

[JammuWarrior]

end of the day why is punjabization bad..Punjabi culture is cool anyone come in contact with Punjabis get punjabicised. as far as Kashmir is concerned it was ruled by Punjabis before british and always been ruled by outsiders.



The Punjabization of India

by HINDUSTAN TIMES SUNDAY MAGAZINE

"Chak de India!"

It burst on the consciousness of the nation as a sporting anthem that spoke to the patriot in every one of us. "Chak de India", it screamed, ostensibly to cheer on the Indian women's hockey team, in a hit movie of the same name.

But, before you could say "King Khan", it had passed over into the language. Now, everyone is chanting "Chak de" at the slightest provocation, using it to enthuse India - and Indians - to do better in every sphere. Television channels employ this magic phrase to title their programmes and banners carrying the slogan appear every time an Indian team plays any kind of sport, as the song acquires a certain universal resonance.

"Chak de India" resonated with me as well, but on a different level. Whenever I heard anyone shouting out the slogan, it reminded me yet again that there was no denying the Punjabization of India.

If you think this sounds a bit far-fetched, just bear with me.

At the literal level, there is no arguing with the Punjabi origins of this phrase. "Chak de phatte" is the traditional exhortation used in almost every situation, from a wedding party to a night out with the boys, to the village kabaddi game. It has become familiar to the rest of India through innumerable bhangra numbers and was introduced to the world by Apache Indian (remember him?) in the 90s.

But even though Punjabi is my mother tongue, I am always stumped when someone asks what this phrase means exactly.

Short answer is: Umm, I'm not too sure. I know when it is used and what it signifies. But how do you translate "Chak de"? Sorry, haven't a clue. The closest I come to explaining it is to say that it means something like raising the roof. Or maybe, raising hell?

But the point is that none of this matters. What does is that the catchiness of this phrase has caught the imagination of the nation. And everyone from Kashmir to Kochi is singing along to its thumping beat. It doesn't matter where you come from or where you live. So long as you are Indian, a little bit of Punjab lives on your tongue.

It does so in more ways than one, too.

Bengalis may rave about the delicacy and refinement of their cuisine, Gujaratis ramble on about their understanding of flavours, and Lucknow and Hyderabad can argue long and hard about the relative merits of their particular style of biryani. But when it comes to Indian food that has popular appeal, it's Punjabi all the way.

Meen mioly and chingri malai curry are all very well, but it's mutter paneer and mutton kebabs that move.

It is now become something of a cliché to say that chicken tikka masala is the most popular dish in the U.K., but there it is. What the world knows as Indian food is actually Punjabi food. Certainly more people have heard of dal makhni than have visited Dal Lake. To update that old Khalistani brag: tandoori chicken is the national bird of India. Why, it's even a pizza topping now!

The influence of Punjab goes beyond our dining tables, though. It also decides how most Indian women dress today. The times when the sari was the most visible outfit on Indian streets are over. These days, it is the ubiquity of the salwar kameez that strikes you, no matter where you travel in this country. Whether it is a village in Bihar, a Goan beach, a small town in the Hindi heartland or the deep South, or cosmopolitan metros like Mumbai, Delhi or Bangalore, the salwaar kameez is everywhere.

It has been adopted as the outfit of choice by Indian women, wherever they may live. It may take on different shapes and styles in various parts of the country and at opposite ends of the social spectrum, but its Punjabi provenance remains beyond a shadow of doubt.

It could be the Patiala salwar and short kurti worn by Rani Mukerji (Bunty Aur Babli) that launched a million knock-offs, a high fashion take on the style staple by some Indian designer, or the kind of printed set that traditional middle class women
have made their own, but the salwar kameez crops up all over.

And then, there is the music. You just have to turn it on and Punjabi shoulders begin to shake with the beat. Now, they have infected the rest of India with this malaise as well. The bhangra beat has taken over, it resounds in our discos and nightclubs.

Dance sequences in Hindi movies owe a substantial debt to the folk dances of Punjab. The balle-balle routine has become an integral part of baraats (wedding processions) in every part of this country. And whether it is Durga or Ganesh (Hindu idols) that are taken for immersion, either in Calcutta or Mumbai, they are escorted by devotees dancing along Punjabi-style.

Even our national identity is beginning to reflect the best of Punjab. The new India is not characterized by the brooding intensity of Bengal, the nerdy intellectualism of the South, or even the machismo of feudal Rajasthan.

No, it is the passion and pride of Punjab that describes it best. It is the vim and vigour of this Northern state, its go-getting,
can-do spirit that seems to prevail.

As the slogan goes, "Chak de ...!"

It was ruled by Dogras, they are similar to Punjabis but are still different.

 

[jatt+gutts]

It was ruled by Dogras, they are similar to Punjabis but are still different.

The first dogra ruler was Gulab Singh, who became Raja of Jammu and Kashmir through a grant from the Sikh ruler Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and subsequently accepted the throne of Kashmir. The region of Jammu and Kashmir was ruled by Raja Gulab Singh but was in total control of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and Raja Gulab Singh was allowed to collect tax and look after the management of the region with special orders from Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The region of Jammu and Kashmir became an integral part of Sikh Empire, ranging from Afghanistan to Punjab to Kashmir. The coins in circulation, that time can be found with Sikh motifs and Khalsa emblem