Military Simulation - The Indo-Pak conflict - A hyperbole

[PanzerKiel]

It is no fun dealing with the equipment and the formations presently available; far from being fun planning for them, it is clear that nothing can be accomplished given the difficulties of the terrain involved. Even if an MBT is geared to run at 60 kmph on level ground, no MBT in the IA inventory can traverse the terrain, by itself, at a speed of more than 10 to 20 kmph. By the time an offensive is mounted either from Jaisalmer towards Pano Aqil, or from Barmer towards Malir, it will take over 10 hours running without opposition for forces to reach Pano Aqil, and over 20, possibly closer to 40 hours to reach Malir. It is unlikely that the PAF will pass up the opportunity to pay homage to the memory of Wg. Cdr. Suresh, in paying their compliments to the formations involved.

PA and IA rate for armor advance in normal contact with enemy is 1-2 kms per hour (as vetted by history and normal field exercises as well). In case of absence of enemy, they are 8 kms per hour.

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It is proposed to put a formation on the doorstep of Pano Aqil in 6 hours' time, with sufficient firepower to keep @PanzerKiel 's rather nerve-wracking ATGMs at bay, and to put a formation in or around Malir in 12 hours' time.

ATGMs is just one aspect....mines, water bodies etc make it more interesting.

 

[surya kiran]

@SQ8 ICG has got Grifin hovercrafts, most of which are based in the western coast. I think 10 to 12 of them are based here. They would be put to use probably for operations in the marshy areas. Each can carry approx 40 combat troops. You could see how this helps.

 

[Joe Shearer]

PA and IA rate for armor advance in normal contact with enemy is 1-2 kms per hour (as vetted by history and normal field exercises as well). In case of absence of enemy, they are 8 kms per hour.

Many thanks; I was looking for this figure, and was not sure. It vindicates the work-around I have in mind.

ATGMs is just one aspect....mines, water bodies etc make it more interesting.

I can assure you, you will find the solution proposed interesting.

@SQ8 ICG has got Grifin hovercrafts, most of which are based in the western coast. I think 10 to 12 of them are based here. They would be put to use probably for operations in the marshy areas. Each can carry approx 40 combat troops. You could see how this helps.

শালা!
Really HATE this guy.

 

[surya kiran]

Really HATE this guy.

Bharat Forge is planning on making more in India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Bharat Forge is planning on making more in India.

Look what you did. Revealed my whole masterly strategy to park three armoured brigades outside Malir, with air support from Jaisalmer, using the Griffon 8100 (not the 8000 used by the Coast Guard, but the military version).

O the ignominy of it all.

 

[Battlion25]

Estimation is that Pak can rollover India in 12-24 months if it lets go. All this is fanciful work but in actual conflict it will quickly turn into a nightmare on epic proportions. With approx 400-500 nuclear warheads exchanged in just first few hours tit for tat before any conventional engagements follows.. Once the Indian backbone is broken which is basically their civilization the need to fight will be on the lower end for them.

That is the time to swip into India with mass incursions and that is once the El-grid is down, water systems are down, nuclear winter is in effect meaning failure of crops. This is when India becomes rip for complete defeat. Throwing in including a host of coalitions such as Afghans and Uzbeks into the incursions as cannon fodders.

But first you gotta break India's back completely before commiting to the qucik dashing blitzkrieg into the heartland of Inida and by that you achieve it via scorched earth making things into post-apocalyptic scenario plays right into Pakistan as it has many mountains and could sustain such scenario better but you withhold your trump card you just do some faint attacks but you wait until the situation festers over there after the nuclear exchanges that exceeds 400-500 warhead exhanges.

Let India marinate in that disaster then they will assume the worst is over that is when you bring in the cavalry on top of the disaster hence that is when it is rip for the incursions and streamrolling..

1 week post exhanges the Indians will likely assume the worst is over that is when you bring in everything.. Because at that point over 70-80% of India is neutralized including their defensive systems, el-grid, etc etc including their is hunger nothing to eat as India will run out of food immediately hence the incursion you keep it as trump card. once things fester you throw in 10-12m Pak armed forces including paramilitary plus 3-5m Afghans + 4-5m Uzbeks. You land on top of subcontinent as they will be initially no defensive systems as India's defensive shield will be exhausted and breached during the exhanges it will also destroy their grid.

India will likely still have conventional forces at the forward positions you smash into these and cut them off and reach Delhi within 24 hours after the first incursion.. But you will reach a completely different delhi that has been turned into ruble ash meaning you don't need to enter the city just plant a flag for symbolic reasons aka propaganda and exit the toxic city move towards the deccan and Mumbai. It is also key to take out Mumbai suburbs in the first few hours of the exhanges. emptying the mahrastara region area before you put your forces in there... But once the dust settles you will rebuild whatever is gained but it is key to hold firm onto North India and the whole Deccan region..

 

[Joe Shearer]

Estimation is that Pak can rollover India in 12-24 months if it lets go.

Do let go. Don't hold it in, it's bad for health.

 

[farooqbhai007]

@SQ8 ICG has got Grifin hovercrafts, most of which are based in the western coast. I think 10 to 12 of them are based here. They would be put to use probably for operations in the marshy areas. Each can carry approx 40 combat troops. You could see how this helps.

Only 5 are based along the Gujarat axis. Others located along the Western coast are much much further away and out of range to conduct any ops in kutch.

 

[SQ8]

Land ORBAT? Can you tell me specifically in what form you want? Divisions, brigades, units, numbers etc? In which form?

Not necessarily divisions and brigades for land but definitely in terms of assets expected numbers. Ill show the interface as an example in a bit.

Sir,

Plans are being made as quickly as possible, but it is taking longer than expected.

It is no fun dealing with the equipment and the formations presently available; far from being fun planning for them, it is clear that nothing can be accomplished given the difficulties of the terrain involved. Even if an MBT is geared to run at 60 kmph on level ground, no MBT in the IA inventory can traverse the terrain, by itself, at a speed of more than 10 to 20 kmph. By the time an offensive is mounted either from Jaisalmer towards Pano Aqil, or from Barmer towards Malir, it will take over 10 hours running without opposition for forces to reach Pano Aqil, and over 20, possibly closer to 40 hours to reach Malir. It is unlikely that the PAF will pass up the opportunity to pay homage to the memory of Wg. Cdr. Suresh, in paying their compliments to the formations involved.

It is proposed to put a formation on the doorstep of Pano Aqil in 6 hours' time, with sufficient firepower to keep @PanzerKiel 's rather nerve-wracking ATGMs at bay, and to put a formation in or around Malir in 12 hours' time.

I hope that will be exciting enough for the gentlemen concerned with dealing with such unexpected arrivals.

We are naturally talking of a first phase, and of a formal war objective of causing significant attrition to the opposing forces (regrettably, only two infantry divisions and a mechanised infantry division; how nice it would have been to deal with three armoured divisions instead). Subsequent phases, if any, will continue to have this objective.

Huzoor, I wouldn’t go that in depth on land and instead focus on the core competencies of the simulator which is air and naval warfare.

The question does remain of background for this offensive - since in the images you may have noticed civilian traffic is busy in routine and I have made air corridors not just within major Indian & Pakistan cities but also international traffic that pass both over and into the subcontinent. Off course with transponders all civilian traffic is known to each side in these initial 60 minutes and will be removed as things heat up.
Also bear in mind that while we are able to simulate each minute - doing 40 hours and being able to observe everything is going to be fairly tiresome. So I suggest we split it into episodes of several hours and then play the next episode based upon the result of the former. Roll the die if you may.

 

[Battlion25]

You forgot, PN will attack A&N Command and open up Malacca straits for the PLAN to come in. Don't make such rookie mistakes. Involve, PN also. They will feel bad.

Trolling over.

On a serious note, bhai ek thread barabar chal raha hai after years. Aur kahin jaa ke tatti kar na. 1000 aur thread hai, bus ye aur woh ORBAT thread ko chod de. I would advise you go to BrahMos launch thread. Wahan hum BrahMos chodengey, aur tum Ababeel. You can have fun there.

I am not trolling.. I am absolute dead serious here and no PN or Malacca straits will be needed here as we have land-corridor with each other. I didn't take PN into count.. Are you saying we can't do this? And outside of our ability to land 400 nuclear warheads inside India?

As I have said many times you guys live in fantasy delulu.. I have read 24 pages here nobody has even remotely come close to envision what such a war would look like and everyone was treating it as if it is only gonna be conventional warfare which is entirely mistaken. First you calculate a savage nuclear outfall then you start to calculate the conventional engagements etc etc but here everything is done from the opposite which is from a limited conventional skirmishes which is at best wishy washy and doesn't point to the brutally honest picture..

''punch first then ask questions later doctrine will apply here on both sides''

 

[surya kiran]

I am not trolling.. I am absolute dead serious here and no PN or Malacca straits will be needed here as we have land-corridor with each other. I didn't take PN into count.. Are you saying we can't do this? And outside of our ability to land 400 nuclear warheads inside India?

As I have said many times you guys live in fantasy delulu.. I have read 24 pages here nobody has even remotely come close to envision what such a war would look like and everyone was treating it as if it is only gonna be conventional warfare which is entirely mistaken. First you calculate a savage nuclear outfall then you start to calculate the conventional engagements etc etc but here everything is done from the opposite which is from a limited conventional skirmishes which is at best wishy washy and doesn't point to the brutally honest picture..

''punch first then ask questions later doctrine will apply here on both sides''

I am going to assume, you are genuinely 12.

So, let us assume you lob 200 bombs and we lob 200 bombs. What do you think happens? Let us assume, that your 200 bombs fall on 100 cities, what do you think happens to the 200 bombs that we sent your way?

Where did the 10-12 mn PA forces come from? 50% of the population lives in towns. They get wiped out. The remaining bombs take care of another 25%. So now you are left with 50 mn people. Of this, lets assume 35% is below 15 years of age. so now you have 32.5 mn. Let's say 10% is above military age. so now you have 28 mn. Of this lets say 50% are women. Now you have 14 mn. Now are yyou saying these will get commited to cross over to India?

Please note, I have not assumed concentration of population. Now, of this how are you going to cross over without any equipment?

Why do you assume the Afghans and Iranians will help you? We wont nuke Balochistan, because there is nothing to nuke most of the part. Either the Iranians ill come rushing in or Balochistan will declare independence. The Afghans will take KPK. Why do you assume anyone is going to help a dead man?

In a nuclear exchange, there is a higher probability that Iran will take Balochistan and Afghanistan will take KPK, that you doing anything to India.

There is a reason, why you should leave professionals do their jobs. Like I have always said and I still hold. The PA is the first line of defence for India against the nutjobs to your west. It is easier for IA to deal with the PA, than dealing with religious nutjobs who want to meet their maker for whatever promises. The faster you understand this, the saner your replies will get.

 

[Battlion25]

I am going to assume, you are genuinely 12.

So, let us assume you lob 200 bombs and we lob 200 bombs. What do you think happens? Let us assume, that your 200 bombs fall on 100 cities, what do you think happens to the 200 bombs that we sent your way?

Where did the 10-12 mn PA forces come from? 50% of the population lives in towns. They get wiped out. The remaining bombs take care of another 25%. So now you are left with 50 mn people. Of this, lets assume 35% is below 15 years of age. so now you have 32.5 mn. Let's say 10% is above military age. so now you have 28 mn. Of this lets say 50% are women. Now you have 14 mn. Now are yyou saying these will get commited to cross over to India?

Please note, I have not assumed concentration of population. Now, of this how are you going to cross over without any equipment?

Why do you assume the Afghans and Iranians will help you? We wont nuke Balochistan, because there is nothing to nuke most of the part. Either the Iranians ill come rushing in or Balochistan will declare independence. The Afghans will take KPK. Why do you assume anyone is going to help a dead man?

In a nuclear exchange, there is a higher probability that Iran will take Balochistan and Afghanistan will take KPK, that you doing anything to India.

There is a reason, why you should leave professionals do their jobs. Like I have always said and I still hold. The PA is the first line of defence for India against the nutjobs to your west. It is easier for IA to deal with the PA, than dealing with religious nutjobs who want to meet their maker for whatever promises. The faster you understand this, the saner your replies will get.

Why would I keep the blitzkrieg cavalry as trump card if I am not counting on all of that... I have taken into consideration that you will loop in that amount or even higher.. My forces will be out of reach and secure places they will not be within line of impact as they are the trump card otherwise they couldn't be the trump card.. 2+2 is 4 you should have been able to read between the lines on that one.

As far as the rest of the population goes they will be sacrificed and a dead weight majority of them to be fairly honest and I would even say garbage.. Hence someone with clear mind will succeed here that knows the pre-calculation. I said Uzbeks I didn't say Iranians. Don't get it confused. Nobody will charge in here once people see cities going out in flash nobody wants to get hit themselves for such little prize.

But my calculation was on point.. I was not beating around the bushes. Besides India has never stopped an incursion what makes you think you will magically stop it now? The Key here is outmanuvering. We can better sustain the nuclear outfall due to numerous mountains and they will form as natural cover for many remote villages hence we will cope better naturally compared to you that is out in the open..

The Cavalry will reach post disaster once things has festered and the war will begin when you least assume it which is post-major disaser and catastrophe.

Do you have the stomach to wrestle with me on top of the greatest catastrophe scenario and the most cruel meat-grinder. I don't think so as these I will bring in will be these who do not fear dead giving them a clear moral edge to sprint forth and dash across the Indian mainland..

 

[surya kiran]

Why would I keep the blitzkrieg cavalry as trump card if I am not counting on all of that... I have taken into consideration that you will loop in that amount or even higher.. My forces will be out of reach and secure places they will not be in line with impact as they are the trump card.

As far as the rest of the population goes they will be sacrificed and a dead weight majority of them.. Hence someone with clear mind will succeeded here. I said Uzbeks I didn't say Iranians. Don't get it confused. Nobody will charge in here once people see cities going nobody wants to get hit themselves for such little surprise.

But my calculation was on point.. I was not beating around the bushes. Besides India has never stopped an incursion what makes you think you will magically stop it now? The Key here is outmanuvering. We will better sustain the nuclear outfall due to numerous mountains and they will form as natural cover from many remote villages hence we will cope better naturally compared to you that is out in the open..

The Cavalry will reach post disaster once things has festered and the war will begin one you least assume it which is post-major disaser and catastrophe.

Do you have the stomach to wrestle with me on top of the greatest catastrophe scenario and the most cruel meat-grinder. I don't think so as these I will bring will not fear dead giving them a clear moral edge to sprint forth and dash across the Indian mainland..

Aap he ho sir. Aap he ho. Chaa gaye.

Till today we were safe, because yyou were not part of PA decision making. Please officer math ban jaana PA mein. Warna there will be no place to hide for us.

 

[SQ8]

Alright - how does land warfare work in the simulation is not too difficult but it will help folks wanting to provide me guidance. So for e.g. @Joe Shearer ,@PanzerKiel , @surya kiran and others.

There is a list of units I can select from a database that this sim maintains based on OSINT.
These are usually unit groups when it comes to land units and cannot be mass brigades, divisions or otherwise.

But I can for e.g. place T-90s in this location - they are available in troops of 3 in this case and then further group them into a battalion or div. I am not restricted to group the same units together so it can be a grouping of any mobile unit - just dont want to group a static AAA position with a moveable object.

Also when grouping , it does simulate different speeds of systems so tanks with infantry will see the tanks move ahead, then either wait or go back to regroup to keep pace with infantry.

So, I put a single T-90S group near Barmer and then essentially copy paste it into 5 troops.

I then can give movement way points to this troop to head towards - in this case Umerkot. Bear in mind they are fairly far apart but it is good to demonstrate something in terms of mass movements as you will see.

Now the neat part is, even though I laid out my waypoints like that, the ground units will do their best to follow this path but be mindful of terrain elevation and type of terrain so we will see some deviation, some units moving ahead versus regrouping to keep pace with their group. This is going to eat into the time the entire force needs to get into its objective.

So, if I started off at the below time:

It took the units some 7 hours to reach Umerkot from that position - they had to change their positions in the middle, change routes, some waypoints were on terrain that was inaccessible. Some troops raced ahead while others had to navigate differently and so on.
Off course when we build something like an actual formation I will go in much closer and build out a formation based on any public links or ideas provided but it is a good example of how the terrain impacts objectives versus actual route.

Lastly, a note on how land units are simulated similar to other systems but perhaps with a little bit more simplicity since this is a Air/Naval focused sim. Here is the battlecard for the T90S and the metrics being used to represent it.

 

[SQ8]

@SQ8 ICG has got Grifin hovercrafts, most of which are based in the western coast. I think 10 to 12 of them are based here. They would be put to use probably for operations in the marshy areas. Each can carry approx 40 combat troops. You could see how this helps.

It depends on whether they are within the sims database but we can always substitute with a different hovercraft.