MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons

[DARKY]

Like i said before.. that is when you not know of air combat.. apart from links.

Maneuvers in the clouds... include tactics to put the aircraft on beam.. along with rapidly changing speed and direction(aka velocity) ..

Only an idiot who has little in terms of BVR capability against the other flies straight towards the enemy.. The idea is to use the terrain to your advantage and then try to get in close. . or force a WVR situation.

Its not a new tactic.. people who read actual relevant materials on air combat know about these.

Go read about "doppler notch" and then come back.

You took me wrong here... I know why pilot takes those maneuvers... I was the one who once mentioned in some thread that how a cobra maneuver makes the radar lose the track of aircraft.

What I asked was what masala was there in my post... where that retired officer makes a balanced statement.... aout the events... the only masala related thing was that the greenhorn F-16 pilot suffered from some setback... due to Mig locking the F-16 which is perfectly normal.

Besides that... forcing the Mig29 had RWR which allowed them to know weather a F-16 is around... Hence forcing a WVR would not have been a good idea... specially with the HMS and R-73... an experienced pilot here would've preferred Mig29 to cross over or make the 1st shot even If the war was an open one... rather than employing tactics and counter tactics... specially with them being armed with BVR... such tactics can work only If the F-16 pilot has a completed picture of what is flying in Indian air space... any thing less could've been like suicide for the star pilot.

 

[SQ8]

You took me wrong here... I know why pilot takes those maneuvers... I was the one who once mentioned in some thread that how a cobra maneuver makes the radar lose the track of aircraft.

What I asked was what masala was there in my post... where that retired officer makes a balanced statement.... aout the events... the only masala related thing was that the greenhorn F-16 pilot suffered from some setback... due to Mig locking the F-16 which is perfectly normal.

Besides that... forcing the Mig29 had RWR which allowed them to know weather a F-16 is around... Hence forcing a WVR would not have been a good idea... specially with the HMS and R-73... an experienced pilot here would've preferred Mig29 to cross over or make the 1st shot even If the war was an open one... rather than employing tactics and counter tactics... specially with them being armed with BVR... such tactics can work only If the F-16 pilot has a completed picture of what is flying in Indian air space... any thing less could've been like suicide for the star pilot.

Had you bothered to read .. the post is taken from an interview of cecil chaudhry.. and has been mirch masala'ed.
Since now that interview only exists on BR ..
The original interview appeared somewhere in 2003 .. and Ive read it then... it had commentry from other pilots as well.
who outlined the why and hows.

Also, please tell me that you made the RWR comment in jest..
only a fool would "force" WVR by going straight in. ..also.. I thought the RWR worked on detecting radar emissions and gives you a rough estimate on the position and distance.. or is it some magic ball that can detect aircraft in full 3d.

The mig-21 for eg.. was used for great effect in the vietnam war to force F-4 pilots into the merge.
Now the Mig-29 of the IAF in 99 was still using extremely old R-27 systems that performed no better (or worse) that sparrows. ..even if they were that effective.. knowing that the RWR is not some magic ball.. one can postulate how the F-16's could simply stay out of the engagement envelope of the Migs until it was time for the eyeball to take over as the primary sensor.

However, neither the weather conditions.. or RoE permitted the use of these tactics.. and hence the then nuggets frustration and fear of being a sitting duck.

 

[Armstrong]

@Oscar : Mate, I was listening to Musharaf's latest interview (the one he gave to that Indian Anchor & was about the alleged beheadings & the sort !); listening to that I got the impression that the Kargil Conflict was a purely Mujahideen endeavor independent of the Army that escalated into the NLI being brought in when the Indians crossed over into Pakistani Territory & two of their jets were shot down !

Is that true that the Mujahideen sort of sucked us into a conflict that the Army wasn't planning on fighting ?

 

[arp2041]

@Oscar : Mate, I was listening to Musharaf's latest interview (the one he gave to that Indian Anchor & was about the alleged beheadings & the sort !); listening to that I got the impression that the Kargil Conflict was a purely Mujahideen endeavor independent of the Army that escalated into the NLI being brought in when the Indians crossed over into Pakistani Territory & two of their jets were shot down !

Is that true that the Mujahideen sort of sucked us into a conflict that the Army wasn't planning on fighting ?

Do you really think that can be the case?? even if they were Mujahedins than exactly who was giving them Logistics supply to sustain for so long a war against one of the world's military powerhouse??

Mate, Mr. Musharraf has himself admitted in his autobiography that it was his planned operation which was earlier planned in late 1980s but shelved due to internal reasons, none of the persons involved were mujahids but PA's NLI soldiers. This type of operation would have taken years of planning & one can't send unconventional army to fight a conventional one since there is no comparison at all, as you know a soldiers training is very disciplined & state of the art (so they would have been no match for IA).

The Objectives of the Operation were pretty clear:

1. To bring to world's Notice the Kashmir dispute as the world had turned a blind eye to it.

2. To cut-off the srinagar-leh highway so that Siachin supply route gets chocked & PA can reclaim it.

3. Prolong the war so long that International forces brings cease fire & PA gets a large part of Kargil & neighboring areas.

But what Gen. Musharraf din't imagined was the massive Indian retaliation & World's open support to India.

 

[Armstrong]

@arp2041 : Tuuu Oscar haiii ?

Just asking a question mate because all I, being a civilian who was 9 at the time of Kargil, heard is someone else's narration of what did or did not happen & assumptions on why it did happen !
I haven't had the opportunity to read 'In the Line of Fire' so I dunno what Musharaf said but seeing that @Oscar does come across as someone who is both 'impartial' & 'knowledgeable', I hope you would forgive me for asking his opinion !

 

[SEAL]

Epic fail.
Its Indian pilots who scare of dog fights and always crash their planes, during 1999 PAF had no real Bvr capability which gives some fake pride to Indians with inferiority complex.
Today PAF is different and we can lock your super hyped jets from a long range.

 

[arp2041]

@arp2041 : Tuuu Oscar haiii ?

Just asking a question mate because all I, being a civilian who was 9 at the time of Kargil, heard is someone else's narration of what did or did not happen & assumptions on why it did happen !
I haven't had the opportunity to read 'In the Line of Fire' so I dunno what Musharaf said but seeing that @Oscar does come across as someone who is both 'impartial' & 'knowledgeable', I hope you would forgive me for asking his opinion !

Sorry, tere sawaal ka jawaab de diya

i was also a kid when Kargil happened, in fact that war was responsible to turn me into defence enthusiast

BTW did you found any flaw in my argument?? If yes, pls put forward, i will be happy to reply.

+ one more thing, when India claims that it won Kargil war, you have to understand that it is b'coz of the above three objectives which were not fulfilled for PA. It's as simple as that, if you go to war with certain objectives in mind & they aren't fulfilled than Technically speaking you have lost it.

 

[gubbi]

Pakistan claimed they were freedom fighters, freedom fighters don't have an air force.

This is sarcasm, yes?

 

[Armstrong]

Sorry, tere sawaal ka jawaab de diya

i was also a kid when Kargil happened, in fact that war was responsible to turn me into defence enthusiast

BTW did you found any flaw in my argument?? If yes, pls put forward, i will be happy to reply.

+ one more thing, when India claims that it won Kargil war, you have to understand that it is b'coz of the above three objectives which were not fulfilled for PA. It's as simple as that, if you go to war with certain objectives in mind & they aren't fulfilled than Technically speaking you have lost it.

Busss isiii technicalities par hiii India keeps on winning !

Don't mention '71 - that was a different paradigm !

But seriously I don't know what the objectives, I can only speculate ! I once asked my relative in the Army (who posted with the 12th during Kargil) & he either didn't know what the objectives were or didn't want to tell them to me except saying that whatever they were...they were met ! Sounded like BS to hush up a 10-11 year old kid that was me !

I dunno what the objectives were - If it was Internationalizing the Kashmir issue than surely sending a few squads of the SSG into Kashmir masquerading as Kashmiri Mujahideen as part of a well-thought out plan with proper supplies, objectives & intel to pop off a few dozen Indian soldiers here & there over a matter of months along with a sustained media campaign (like you guys do) would have been better !

 

[dbc]

Also, please tell me that you made the RWR comment in jest..
only a fool would "force" WVR by going straight in. ..also.. I thought the RWR worked on detecting radar emissions and gives you a rough estimate on the position and distance.. or is it some magic ball that can detect aircraft in full 3d.

In 1999, general bearing yes but not distance at least it wasn't possible for USAF F-16's in the 90's.
In the case of SAM's it was easy to locate the radar once a SAM was launched. You just have to follow the smoke trail from the missile back to the ground to find the SAM site and radar. Same with Air to Air missile like the R-27 but smart pilots usually don't hang around after letting loose a R-27.

The mig-21 for eg.. was used for great effect in the vietnam war to force F-4 pilots into the merge.
Now the Mig-29 of the IAF in 99 was still using extremely old R-27 systems that performed no better (or worse) that sparrows. ..even if they were that effective.. knowing that the RWR is not some magic ball.. one can postulate how the F-16's could simply stay out of the engagement envelope of the Migs until it was time for the eyeball to take over as the primary sensor.

However, neither the weather conditions.. or RoE permitted the use of these tactics.. and hence the then nuggets frustration and fear of being a sitting duck.

In Iraq a pair of Mig's engaged a USAF F-16 approaching the kill box to eliminate a surface target. That pilot completed his primary strike objective before he turned his attention to and defeated the approaching pair of R-27's. So I'd hang a big negative on the claim that F-16 jocks lived in fear of the R-27. Fighter pilots of all nations exhibit classic signs of thrill seeking behavior I can't say I've ever heard of a well trained fighter pilot being afraid. Besides a fighter pilot can loose a lot of cool points for sounding afraid on the radio, if you've ever heard radio conversation between fighter pilots during combat you'll know what I mean. Heck even the Russians sound cool on the radio and I'm not sure how anyone can sound cool while speaking Russian. Pre-combat nerves is common and afflict all including experienced veterans, veterans who have not just seen the elephant but have had an intimate relations with it.

Russian SAMs are far more dangerous than their air to air missiles and anyone that can figure out why will also discover why the AMRAAM is the most feared air to air missile in the NATO arsenal.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar : Mate, I was listening to Musharaf's latest interview (the one he gave to that Indian Anchor & was about the alleged beheadings & the sort !); listening to that I got the impression that the Kargil Conflict was a purely Mujahideen endeavor independent of the Army that escalated into the NLI being brought in when the Indians crossed over into Pakistani Territory & two of their jets were shot down !

Is that true that the Mujahideen sort of sucked us into a conflict that the Army wasn't planning on fighting ?

Ill be accused of being an Indian again.. by certain racist circles.

But here goes..

I was 15 then..so all I remember is of what other people said and conclusions to that I drew later, living in a posh hotel since my father worked there. In a hotel you meet everybody, and in that hotel you met everybody...and I mean everybody(including the current chief who was GoC Murree at the time and as I heard he was not too happy with it having his misgivings with the details of the operation).

I remember vividly the buildup MUCH before Kargil.. AAA and guns moving along the crossings... (there is a certain bridge at a spot called Kohala that joins into Azad Kashmir).. I remember all the army officer friends we knew talking bits and pieces about it.. about having India by the Jugular(and we did.. all propaganda to the contrary is just BS).
Initially, the PA had captured and held peaks that literally made Indian supply lines a duckshoot..
The LeT were just the initial cannon fodder, since they needed our more professional troops to back them up. So I believe the deeper hits were left to Let and "embedded" troops while the key positions were held by the more able ones.
but when the attacks began.. and the AF officers looked grimmer.. PN even more.. Musharraf plan fell upon itself.

It was brilliant short term tactics.. just really really short sighted. ..and could have been better used in an actual war scenario.. but our leaders have a tendency to not hold on to their aces in the deck because they get over-confident and cocky.

When the retreat happened.. I remember seeing the gardens of the MH and CMH in Murree with constant choppers flying in and out... Chopper pilots who bore testament to countless bloodied bodies.. of men being forced to run.

Kargil was nothing less than a crime against Pakistan, just as Operation Gibraltar was.. and the only people who paid for it were our troops who only said "Labbaik!" and jumped in.. and were abandoned.
Musharraf did not just butter up the NLI later on for no reason.. he knew he had sacrificed troops for no gain and only loss.
and he needed to compensate those troops by some hot airy words.

Kargil, like Op Gibraltar.. was a Pakistani attack on India.. and that I will stand by for all the accusations in the world.
Criminal not just that it brought Pakistan to the brink and pushed its progress back by years, and sacrificed our lions for the ego's of lambs who used it for their contrived gain.
But that these were in essence good ideas and tactical plans that could have stayed better off(or at least elements of them) under the carpet until needed for use.
Until Gibraltar and Kargil.. India was asleep.. it would not even have cared or acted..
Why then would you try to aim for its heart when its not attacked you and by doing so you could save yourself in that dire time.
You forced an oblivious dum-dum into arming itself to the teeth so that when it did exact its revenge you could do nothing(71,Kargil withdrawal).
You forced yourself back two steps so that when the enemy did build itself up you had so destroyed your reputation that no oe would sell you weapons to try and match them... (although the civilian governments that followed these dictators did the most damage in terms of economy.. that is the result of a feudal democracy and a democratic system that was not allowed to develop).

So in conclusion, Kargil was the most brilliant folly ever.. and goes everything against what is called the art of war.
It was a hurried move to try and kill the enemy's bishop without realizing that the move left your king exposed.

 

[dbc]

This is sarcasm, yes?

Nope, Pakistan confessed in July 1999. India found hard evidence of Pakistan Army involvement only after taking the peak.

 

[DARKY]

Had you bothered to read .. the post is taken from an interview of cecil chaudhry.. and has been mirch masala'ed.
Since now that interview only exists on BR ..
The original interview appeared somewhere in 2003 .. and Ive read it then... it had commentry from other pilots as well.
who outlined the why and hows.

Also, please tell me that you made the RWR comment in jest..
only a fool would "force" WVR by going straight in. ..also.. I thought the RWR worked on detecting radar emissions and gives you a rough estimate on the position and distance.. or is it some magic ball that can detect aircraft in full 3d.

The mig-21 for eg.. was used for great effect in the vietnam war to force F-4 pilots into the merge.
Now the Mig-29 of the IAF in 99 was still using extremely old R-27 systems that performed no better (or worse) that sparrows. ..even if they were that effective.. knowing that the RWR is not some magic ball.. one can postulate how the F-16's could simply stay out of the engagement envelope of the Migs until it was time for the eyeball to take over as the primary sensor.

However, neither the weather conditions.. or RoE permitted the use of these tactics.. and hence the then nuggets frustration and fear of being a sitting duck.

I just quoted a part of it.. and it sounds reasonable... It doesn't have to be a masala necessarily since its from BR.

Back then in late 80s and 90s when your Airforce got F-16... RWR was a crucial asset on Mig29 something for which IAF pilot really appreciated them having.. more than the BVRs too.. perhaps thats my conclusion.

I don't know how correct is that... when the 1st time IAF and PAF pilots were speaking in some international gathering both were asked about their primary air-air fighters... the PAF pilot responded with all praise about how maneuverable F-16 were and easy to fly etc against the Mig29s... when they asked IAF pilot about what does he thinks about opponent F-16 of PAF.. the pilot simply said that he would know about the F-16 If its around.

RWR was heavily invested upon by domestic agencies and today we have local RWRs on our jets... somewhat better than what Russian could provide.

No it cannot but provide enough to the pilots on Mig29 which was sufficient in the absence of Long range surveillance radars and airborne coverage on either sides.

Sparrows were the ones who scored most kills in the 90s I guess... about WVR contest the only disadvantage with the Migs were its AB engines which allowed close range missile to lock from front... other than that HMS and R-73 gave it more advantage against F-16 something which was shown by Germans and soon most of the other jets also had their version of it.

 

[Subho]

I guess these self praising articles will never mention such incidents where a formation of two F-16s crept up behind a flight of five Mig-29s flying parallel on their side of the border. The MiGs were completely unaware of PAF's presence and maintained their heading, however at some point the Indian GCI picked up the F-16s and called Fulcrum leader to break, the MiGs jinxed so violently that they nearly crashed into each other....after which they left the scene.

original script found.lets make a movie

 

[Su-11]

This incident was confirmed by a third party neutral source, the ACIG group, and it still adores their site Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948

May99 223 Sqn MiG-29 G.Chibber Lock-on 2xF-16 ?Sqn/PAF

while the other PAF claims like the F-7+F-16 - Mirage lockon story is just a story of PAF and American-hardware fans.
Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories