MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons

[Windjammer]

Yeehooo!!!!! Mr ATC operator,I got something for you ,

Since you are blasting off....And what's new in your discovery except both sides locked onto each other and IAF mounted no threat to the PA and PAF was under sanctions hence some lack of spares is also no secret....resulting in F-16 cutting it's flying time but if needed it would be pushed into action. !!

 

[SQ8]

R27's in iraqi a/f were using very unrefined r27R, with semi active seekers, I dont think they had any PRGS seekers also the fact passive versions are quite expensive(nearly twice).

sir, I have a hard time believing that you (one of the most respected individuals on the forum), are implying that IAF would commission vympel missiles even now, when they can easily employ python4, and Magic 530D, Mica, and instead IAF still chooses to go with Vympel R27P/EP/ER and RVV-MD which apparently seem ineffective.

we are talking about that time period.. 80-90s.
I believe both you and I agreed that Russain tech has moved by leaps and bounds since then..

the R-77 of today is probably much more reliable than the missile first tested for use in the VVS

Okay, so you are comparing a professional Airforce like the IAF with the Ethiopian Air Force which does even have properly trained pilots, and hired mercenaries with god knows how their skills were. And not to mention the crucial aspect that these airforces care jack squat about their (missile) maintenance and storage facilities. And i dont have to remind everyone of AA missiles storage and maintanance and their degradation if not properly stored.

They hired experienced Russian mercenaries.. please read up on the conflict before jumping to conclusions in haste to make a hurried defensive argument.

 

[DARKY]

With a success rate of .. lets see.. 26 Iraqi aircraft were shot down with AIM-7 missiles, with 71 AIM-7s fired (a hit rate of 37% by the people that manufactured the missile..)... and thats the best the M variant gave.. which was introduced in 82.. compared to that.. the russian counterpart.. the R-27... did not score squat against even its own aircraft... flown by russians..

In other words.. the alamo is a piece of trash.. that it could not best a 50 year old design even then.

It works and that is enough.... even If the success rate is about 20% lets say.. there was no shortage of missiles or the platform using them... say flying in pairs even 2 kills achieved out of 10 fired seriously degrades enemy's fighting capability.

Same can be said about AMRAAM which had a success of 47% or so... in BVR.

Alamo is still being used by Russian, Chinese and Indian Airforce which operate around 2000 or so combat planes combined... It it was such a trash they would've phased them out already.

They hired experienced Russian mercenaries.. please read up on the conflict before jumping to conclusions in haste to make a hurried defensive argument.

He is right about maintenance part.. Heat and moisture damages the BVR missile so you need to store it properly and in AC.. etc.

 

[Su-11]

They hired experienced Russian mercenaries.. please read up on the conflict before jumping to conclusions in haste to make a hurried defensive argument.

I don't see any "experienced" in what was quoted. Besides, experienced compared to the poorly trained Ethiopian counterparts or experienced w.r.t flying hours? Also is the fact that the russian airforce couldn't even fly properly after their collapse of the S.U and these ex-russian pilots, would have gotten way less flying hours than the IAF for sure. They may be "experienced"(which is yet to be proved btw) compared to the EAF, but not the IAF.

And what about their missile storage?
Just to give an example:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/Sl9_xE5UoQI/AAAAAAAAA2A/D1ygut7QAyM/s1600-h/R-77-3.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/Sl9_in_BvzI/AAAAAAAAA14/fr2PMV6C3hA/s1600-h/R-77-4.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/Sl9_UkQUNcI/AAAAAAAAA1w/-ffDdjMn5HA/s1600-h/R-77-5.jpg
And that is for the latest version of R-77. R-27 is a more bulky and a complex missile, than the R-77. And the R-27 used would have been the previous versions, not the latest, making them more susceptible to the elements.

Besides, the Ethiopian Air force bought Su-27s which were SECOND HAND and most likely the armament would also have been second hand stuff as well since literally thousands of missiles were simply lying around, after the collapse of the Soviet union, and it makes more sense for the Russians to sell these relics off instead of seeing them rot away in godowns, and it also makes more sense for a cash strapped airforce like the EAF to get these second hand weapons as well. Even the russians would have not maintained their missiles properly before transferring them to the Ethiopian Air Force because of the sorry state of their military after the collapse of their country, let alone the Ethiopian Airforce.

Seriously, comparing experiences of Ethiopian air force without knowing all the details and super imposing the results on to the highly professional airforce like the Indian Air force is one of the dumbest propositions ever.

 

[nForce]

I wasn't the one on the advisory panel, nor the wars are fought with a pre-requeste, and it's not as if violation wasn't exactly carried out by the IAF......General Musharraff in his interview pointed this out to put many minds to rest.
However you seem a special case in assuming what could have happened rather than focusing on what did actually took place over a decade earlier.

do you realize how ridiculous you sound?Taking precautions may not feature in your book but it does in our case.Its always easier to give preachings AFTER something has happened.

 

[SQ8]

I don't see any "experienced" in what was quoted. Besides, experienced compared to the poorly trained Ethiopian counterparts or experienced w.r.t flying hours? Also is the fact that the russian airforce couldn't even fly properly after their collapse of the S.U and these ex-russian pilots, would have gotten way less flying hours than the IAF for sure. They may be "experienced"(which is yet to be proved btw) compared to the EAF, but not the IAF.

And what about their missile storage?
Just to give an example:
R-77-3.jpg (image)
R-77-4.jpg (image)
R-77-5.jpg (image)
And that is for the latest version of R-77. R-27 is a more bulky and a complex missile, than the R-77. And the R-27 used would have been the previous versions, not the latest, making them more susceptible to the elements.

Besides, the Ethiopian Air force bought Su-27s which were SECOND HAND and most likely the armament would also have been second hand stuff as well since literally thousands of missiles were simply lying around, after the collapse of the Soviet union, and it makes more sense for the Russians to sell these relics off instead of seeing them rot away in godowns, and it also makes more sense for a cash strapped airforce like the EAF to get these second hand weapons as well. Even the russians would have not maintained their missiles properly before transferring them to the Ethiopian Air Force because of the sorry state of their military after the collapse of their country, let alone the Ethiopian Airforce.

Seriously, comparing experiences of Ethiopian air force without knowing all the details and super imposing the results on to the highly professional airforce like the Indian Air force is one of the dumbest propositions ever.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to disprove or prove..

You seem to be flustering over the R-77 when that is not even the topic of discussion... rather the R-27 series that was in usage by India during that time and manufactured at the same time as the ones used in the EtAF and EAD(ukranian ex-stock and Russian stock).

Your desperate claims to somehow defend IAF pilots(which arent even in question) by ridiculing russian ones.. seem to be belie research by more experienced sources which suggest that these were NOT fresh pilots but rather experienced ones(having time in both the cold war and post cold war VVS) who had retired and now were being employed to fly and train the EtAF.

On the other side, Ukrainian pilots who were also ex-VVS and not "nuggets" or inexperienced ones as you so suggest.
Somehow I cannot fathom your desperate defense based on moisture and storage compared to the newer crop when it is clear that the same conditions would have effected those missiles used by the IAF then.

Moreover, this storage issue would then be MUCH more crucial in India as humidity averages the same or worse than ethopia in those climate zones. Which is why right after Kargil the IAF had to look desperately for R-27 stock to replace its worn out ones and rushed to Ukraine and Russia.


As for your R-27 and R-77, Id rather trust the claims of the IAF...they are actual professionals as compared to fanboys.
Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report - Indian Express

More by the government of India(god bless their transparency and help ours achieve the same)
http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our_Products/Audit_Report/Government_Wise/union_audit/recent_reports/union_compliance/2011_12/Defence_Services/report_20/chap2.pdf

excerpts from the government report.

IAF acquired 300 air*to*air ‘X’ type* of missiles* (missile) and 440 missile*
launchers* at* a total cost of Rs* 665.99 crore* during the period 1999 to 2002
from a Russian firm for its*‘A’ and ‘C’ fighter aircraft*fleets.

Correlate this data with weapons transfers to the IAF:

R-27RE; items: 60; transferred from Russia to India in 1999 and 2000
R-27TE; items: 56; transferred from Russia to India in 1999 and 2000
R-77; items: 174; transferred from Russia to India between 1999 and 2001

so we have two systems identified by Indian Government reports based on official IAF reports
Lets.. read on.

The*serviceability status*of these*missiles, since*their induction,*had been very
poor.*
42*missiles*(14*per*cent) were*rendered*unserviceable*during*the*warranty
period of one year itself.*IAF took 19 to 23 months*(constituting nearly 25 per*cent of the* active life) to make*these missiles*serviceable*by the* Original*Equipment*Manufacturer*(OEM).*
Subsequently,* after expiry of warranty period, 64 (21 per*cent) missiles* were rendered unserviceable before* June* 2004. Although 27 of these defective missiles* were* repaired through cannibalization, the* total*
number of defective missiles kept*increasing from 91 in June 2005 to 121 (40 per*cent)*by November 2005.* As*of December*2008,*80 missiles*remained unserviceable while*the*shelf life*of the*remaining 98 missiles*had*already expired

So in all your wailing defense, its the IAF itself.. which is a much more professional and capable service than the EtAF(and in my opinion even the VVS(RuAF)).. is having headaches with this hardware. So please dont get flustered at me or anything else.
Complain to the IAF first that you think that they are doing a piss-poor job of keeping such reliable weaponry(as you claim) in bad shape.

 

[DARKY]

So in all your wailing defense, its the IAF itself.. which is a much more professional and capable service than the EtAF(and in my opinion even the VVS(RuAF)).. is having headaches with this hardware. So please dont get flustered at me or anything else.
Complain to the IAF first that you think that they are doing a piss-poor job of keeping such reliable weaponry(as you claim) in bad shape.

Such problem is normally associated with BVR AAM... there have been similar storage related problem where even the nose cones of the AMRAAM cracked.

Missile fault blamed on humidity - Taipei Times

Radomes, one of the eight main sections of a missile, are a pyroceramic cone at the nose that serve as a window for radar or heat-seeking electromagnetic devices inside the missile.

The problem is not unique to Russian AAM but other countries too sch as the AMRAAM of US.
What makes the difference here is that the storage by IAF would result in say 20% loss than and inexperienced AF like Ethiopian can have upto 30-40% or even more.

 

[SQ8]

Such problem is normally associated with BVR AAM... there have been similar storage related problem where even the nose cones of the AMRAAM cracked.

Missile fault blamed on humidity - Taipei Times



The problem is not unique to Russian AAM but other countries too sch as the AMRAAM of US.
What makes the difference here is that the storage by IAF would result in say 20% loss than and inexperienced AF like Ethiopian can have upto 30-40% or even more.

But it seems other issues also effect the Russian AAM's.. I cant seem to find similar complaints against US hardware..

perhaps the 70's sparrow.. not the AMRAAM.
It still does not absolve the R-27 of its relative uselessness in combat.

 

[Windjammer]

do you realize how ridiculous you sound?Taking precautions may not feature in your book but it does in our case.Its always easier to give preachings AFTER something has happened.

Yup you acutely are up there with the Joneses ....it's your ridiculous assessment which can't absorb the fact that Pakistan had it's sources at hand that even with the absent of PAF, it still managed to neutralise the threat.

 

[Black Widow]

MiG29 Objective in Kargil war.


1. To escort Fighter bombers like M2000H and Jag.
2. To keep Aggressor F16 if they try to do something nasty.


Objective complete...

 

[DARKY]

But it seems other issues also effect the Russian AAM's.. I cant seem to find similar complaints against US hardware..

perhaps the 70's sparrow.. not the AMRAAM.
It still does not absolve the R-27 of its relative uselessness in combat.

The electronic part of the missile is always vulnerable to climatic changes... be it US or Russian.

You might be knowing how the seekers of Aim120C7 one of the better and more advanced version of AMRAAM had its seeker failing to pick up targets in Sweden due to to low temperature.

The climatic vulnerability has certainly reduced but still exists no doubt... and here we are talking about something decades old.. remember those days when DOS computers required an AC room and you could enter only with your shoes open..[no dust]... while today you can play Battlefield 3 on your laptop right in the middle of Thar desert in summer... with Window 7 as OS.

 

[SQ8]

The electronic part of the missile is always vulnerable to climatic changes... be it US or Russian.

You might be knowing how the seekers of Aim120C7 one of the better and more advanced version of AMRAAM had its seeker failing to pick up targets in Sweden due to to low temperature.

The climatic vulnerability has certainly reduced but still exists no doubt... and here we are talking about something decades old.. remember those days when DOS computers required an AC room and you could enter only with your shoes open..[no dust]... while today you can play Battlefield 3 on your laptop right in the middle of Thar desert in summer... with Window 7 as OS.

Link for that claim, since its not related to our countries to accept that claim on face value.
Still doesnt not seem to reflect as to how the IAF is only one complaining.

 

[DARKY]

Link for that claim, since its not related to our countries to accept that claim on face value.
Still doesnt not seem to reflect as to how the IAF is only one complaining.

Sorry I was confused with the countries and the problem was with rocket motor controls and not seeker.

Sales to Finland have stalled, because the manufacturer has not been able to fix a mysterious bug that causes the rocket motors of the missile to fail in cold tests.

AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Outo vika pysäytti ohjuskaupan - Kotimaa - Helsingin Sanomat

You can say IAF is complaining... same thing can be said about other hot and humid places such as Taiwan which too uses advanced Aim120C5/7.

 

[Su-11]

Not exactly sure what you are trying to disprove or prove..

You seem to be flustering over the R-77 when that is not even the topic of discussion... rather the R-27 series that was in usage by India during that time and manufactured at the same time as the ones used in the EtAF and EAD(ukranian ex-stock and Russian stock).

Not flustered over anything, a newer version of R-77 required so much care and handle. An old version of R-27's tolerance must be even less.

Your desperate claims to somehow defend IAF pilots(which arent even in question) by ridiculing russian ones.. seem to be belie research by more experienced sources which suggest that these were NOT fresh pilots but rather experienced ones(having time in both the cold war and post cold war VVS) who had retired and now were being employed to fly and train the EtAF.
On the other side, Ukrainian pilots who were also ex-VVS and not "nuggets" or inexperienced ones as you so suggest.
Somehow I cannot fathom your desperate defense based on moisture and storage compared to the newer crop when it is clear that the same conditions would have effected those missiles used by the IAF then.

Only you are talking about them being experienced. How were they more experienced? In case you dont know, VVS follows the a rigid concept of training, and generally performs mass attacks. It relies more on quantity than quality. Also is the fact that the russian airforce couldn't even fly properly after their collapse of the S.U and these ex-russian pilots, would have gotten way less flying hours than the IAF for sure. They may be "experienced"(which is yet to be proved btw) compared to the EAF, but not the IAF.

Moreover, this storage issue would then be MUCH more crucial in India as humidity averages the same or worse than ethopia in those climate zones. Which is why right after Kargil the IAF had to look desperately for R-27 stock to replace its worn out ones and rushed to Ukraine and Russia.

And because of this humidity they are kept in climate controlled rooms. If humidity was your biggest concern, then a simple AC can remove your humidity.

As for your R-27 and R-77, Id rather trust the claims of the IAF...they are actual professionals as compared to fanboys.
Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report - Indian Express

More by the government of India(god bless their transparency and help ours achieve the same)
http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our_Products/Audit_Report/Government_Wise/union_audit/recent_reports/union_compliance/2011_12/Defence_Services/report_20/chap2.pdf

excerpts from the government report.



Correlate this data with weapons transfers to the IAF:

R-27RE; items: 60; transferred from Russia to India in 1999 and 2000
R-27TE; items: 56; transferred from Russia to India in 1999 and 2000
R-77; items: 174; transferred from Russia to India between 1999 and 2001

so we have two systems identified by Indian Government reports based on official IAF reports
Lets.. read on.


So in all your wailing defense, its the IAF itself.. which is a much more professional and capable service than the EtAF(and in my opinion even the VVS(RuAF)).. is having headaches with this hardware. So please dont get flustered at me or anything else.
Complain to the IAF first that you think that they are doing a piss-poor job of keeping such reliable weaponry(as you claim) in bad shape.

Hold on, why are you proving my point? I never claimed they were 100% reliable. I already know the CAG report you quoted(yeah, CAG, not the government as you claim.) If IAF cannot maintain a 100% serviceability of these missiles, then how can a piss poor ethiopian AF can? And this is why all their 24 missiles failed to hit, because all their second hand missiles became unserviceable, while the IAF had maintained a figure from 10-40% from initial days to the time of life expiry. Do you really think IAF will deploy the 10-40% of unserviceable missiles during combat?

 

[Su-11]

The electronic part of the missile is always vulnerable to climatic changes... be it US or Russian.

You might be knowing how the seekers of Aim120C7 one of the better and more advanced version of AMRAAM had its seeker failing to pick up targets in Sweden due to to low temperature.

The climatic vulnerability has certainly reduced but still exists no doubt... and here we are talking about something decades old.. remember those days when DOS computers required an AC room and you could enter only with your shoes open..[no dust]... while today you can play Battlefield 3 on your laptop right in the middle of Thar desert in summer... with Window 7 as OS.

Humidity is not all. Problems With Motor Slow U.S. AMRAAM Buys | Defense News | defensenews.com

The R-77s which India procured were after just 4-5 years of them entering into service. So hiccups will be there like the AMRAAM mentioned above. Also, the Russians were in the midst of a collapse, I'm surprised they even managed to complete the R&D in that time.

I forgot to include this in my previous post -

R-27RE; items: 60; transferred from Russia to India in 1999 and 2000
R-27TE; items: 56; transferred from Russia to India in 1999 and 2000
R-77; items: 174; transferred from Russia to India between 1999 and 2001

What the hell is this? Where did u get this from?
The CAG report clearly contradicts that and states only ONE type of missile X. Not X, Y and Z. That one type of missile is obviously the newly procured and developed R-77, not R-27. And IAF did an outstanding job of keeping these new missiles well in shape. With R-27, they must have had serviceability rates better than the earlier batches of R-77, although generally R-77 is easier to maintain than the R-27, the initial batches would have been the reverse.